Chat Topic: IGDA Independent Games Special Interest Group Chat | http://igda.org/indie | Topics include recent survey results, site redesign, and any questions anyone has --- [14:16] --> You are now talking on #indie-sig [14:16] hi [14:26] we have an agenda based on survey results and getting suggestions for the website [14:27] yeah [14:29] --> Semhirage (i=Semhirag@unaffiliated/semhirage) has joined #indie-sig [14:29] hello [14:29] g'day [14:31] hi [14:34] --> straver (n=straver@h55l104.delphi.afb.lu.se) has joined #indie-sig [14:34] hi [14:35] --> meacan (n=dennis@koderen.dk) has joined #indie-sig [14:35] hi [14:36] --> slux (n=antti@82-203-196-197.dsl.gohome.fi) has joined #indie-sig [14:43] --> valles_marin (n=Bob@adsl-69-109-122-23.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #indie-sig [14:47] Gametunnel's Top 10 indie games for 2005, http://www.gametunnel.com/articles.php?id=412 [14:47] I found Democracy in particular to be very interesting [14:54] Some of those games have been entered in the IGF http://www.igf.com [14:57] You wouldn't know of any good GBA development Channels would ya??? [14:57] hm, not really [14:57] Darwinia seems really, really good but I can't get my hands on it easily in Finland :P [15:05] why can't you? [15:05] no steam or anything there? [15:05] or can't get full version shipped there? isn't it a downloadable game? [15:07] difficult payment options and I don't use Windows much, don't like steam at all :P [15:21] that's interesting [15:21] ok [15:21] i just got an email inviting me to an event next month at a medical research centre [15:22] UK ICT/Multimedia companies looking for Canadian partners [15:22] what's odder is that it actually seems legit [15:22] i wonder why i of all people and developers would recieve such an invitation [15:22] * coldacid is puzzled [15:27] ok [15:27] Been doing Data Mitigation All Day... Working with XML too... [15:28] hrm [15:29] if we're going for the whole 4 hours, i think that a recess at 7pm-7:30 EST would be a good idea [15:29] for dinner? [15:29] yeah [15:29] sounds all right [15:32] guys the "official" thing is gonna start in half an hour right? [15:32] phil14: yeah [15:33] i guess right now could be called setup? [15:33] yeah [15:33] yes [15:35] so sorry but i havent actually followed the "indie" scene in the past, are we gonna exchange some valuable ideas or wahts the purpose of the whole thing [15:36] valuable ideas, survey results, web design ideas, whatever ;) [15:36] in short, plans for the sig [15:36] right [15:38] guys id have a few questions to the more experienced developers here, if any here at this point [15:40] --> DrWilloughby (n=ajschatz@ip68-6-195-57.sd.sd.cox.net) has joined #indie-sig [15:40] ok [15:40] Ask, can't promise answers but if you don't ask you won't get any... [15:40] f.e. has anyone developed a more "advanced" game [15:41] Depends on what you mean by "Advanced"... I am currently working on a GBA Game [15:43] advanced means a fps [15:44] FPS Suck... and every dick, tom and his Harry does one... What is your question in relation to FPS??? [15:45] well i mean if you have 3-4 level designers and some designers... has anyone achieved something like that [15:46] Kinda, But not at a professional level... [15:46] any results? [15:47] And, as for Leve designers, I had me... oh, yeah and it was more of a FP walk about not really a shooter... hehehe... [15:48] im talking about resource crap i.e. if you have some level/model designers without a budget [15:49] I'm learning about level design [15:49] unbudgeted... [15:51] well learning doesnt mean actually achieving aomething... no offense intended [15:52] Yeah, getting people together to work on a mid-Large scale projects for free presents many issues... I have dealt with many of them and refuse to go back to that hell... I am sure that if everyone on the time is "HARD CORE" deticated it can workout great but the trouble is finding great people... [15:53] exactly youre right [15:53] finding the right ppl is the hard part [15:54] I've done some, but still learning [15:54] personally I'm a designer [15:55] have you got any examples just wanna see an example of what can be achieved "for free" [15:56] hehe... Zratchet, as a designer, what skills do you have or do you just come up with idea's and say, "look this cool, you make???" I am kinda a Designer/programmer/project manager/CEO combo... :P [15:58] You got a site to check out your work ConquerWorm? [15:58] Honestly, you can achieve anything you can dream for free... if you have the time... people... Software is not an issue until you plan on selling or distributing said project... [15:58] alrighty then [15:58] ConquerWorm: I'm a designer/project manager [15:58] * coldacid is everything short of artist and musician [15:59] been doing OSS dev for 4 years, and 1 year of study at Austin Community College Video Game Curriculum [15:59] and 1 year of leading the Indie SIG [15:59] :) [15:59] * zratchet has 10 years of classical guitar training too [15:59] all right, [15:59] No, site, been WAY, too busy... Not yet... End of the year I will have the companies site up and our project... [15:59] it's 4PM CST [15:59] time to officially start the chat [16:00] cool 11 ppl [16:00] :) [16:00] anyway, what topic should we cover first? [16:00] well [16:01] our topics are: survey results from a survey I did recently on what Independent Game Developers want and need [16:01] we take the survey results one question at a time, i think [16:01] before considering the survey as a whole [16:01] redesign and content suggestions for our site at http://igda.org/indie [16:01] coldacid: yes, good idea [16:02] coldacid: any other topics besides free talk, whatever questions or discussion others want? [16:02] 1st suggestion, you should have mentioned the topics in the gamedev news [16:03] valles: true. actually, i should have worked out an agenda before we started posting the announcement [16:03] ok :/ [16:03] So, first question from the survey [16:03] "What type of games are you interested in making?" [16:03] the results: [16:05] self-published independent (4.36), channel-published [steam, realarcade, etc.] (4.22), commercial open-source (3.71), casual games (3.7), non-commercial open-source (3.35), mods (2.67) [16:05] that's out of 22.01 [16:06] from this it seems like most focus is on self-publishing and channel-publishing for indies. [16:06] a scale of 1-5 , 5 being most interested... [16:06] you asked 22 people? [16:06] that's right, it's not weighted [16:06] straver: total of the scores is 22.01 [16:06] I do find it interesting that commercial open-source is higher than casual games [16:07] i find it interesting, although not surprising, that mods are ranked so low [16:07] actually, total respondents for that section of the survey were 71 [16:08] seeing how big a drop between non-com open source and mods, i think its safe to say that mod development is not an interest of the sig [16:09] its possible that the mod community and indie developer community, while alike in some places, are really orthogonal to each other [16:09] (i think orthigonal is the word i want...) [16:09] perhaps [16:09] at the same time, there are indie developers I know who use versions of engines that are used by modders [16:09] as for casual games, there seems to already be a seperate sig for it now [16:10] engines like QFusion or DarkPlaces [16:10] based on Quake, which is mainly a modders engine [16:10] any commercial games use those engines? [16:10] oh, they're quake ports? [16:10] not that I know of but I know some developers who would like to [16:10] yes [16:10] old, OSS-quake... [16:10] quake 1 then? [16:11] quake 2 and 3 are available under OSS now too [16:11] i know that id is still open to licensing q3 for those who can't swallow the GPL [16:11] I don't understand why its hard to swallow the GPL :/ [16:11] unfortunately i dont know what they'd charge [16:11] sharing code is not a problem in my POV :p [16:11] zratchet: because the licensing terms would prevent use of other, non-GPL libraries and such [16:12] well, I can see that then [16:12] like if a user wanted to pull in, say, physx for physics or something [16:12] they should have done it LGPL ... [16:12] that's what i think, too [16:13] but carmack is as big on gpl vs lgpl as stallman himself [16:13] anyways, would everyone agree that mod development may not be applicable to the purposes of the indie sig? [16:13] im not saying kick the modders away, but that mods shouldn't be a primary focus [16:14] yeah [16:14] well, Carmack's done a pretty big code contribution under the GPL, maybe he'd hope someone else would make a sizeable contribution in the way of physics libs or whatever [16:14] same goes with casual games [16:14] <-- phil14 has quit () [16:14] there are open source physics libraries, but they're not gpl'd [16:14] I'd had some interest in actually splitting out into an OSS SIG as well but the person interested in doing that had personal problems AFAIK and I lost contact :/ [16:15] i think ode is under the lgpl, which makes it usable with gpl code as long as its treated as gpl'd code itself [16:15] GPL 3 is out now [16:15] i think splitting off a mod sig would be better than an oss one [16:15] no, that's just a draft [16:15] ok.. yeah, I guess it was [16:15] GPL 3 final will be out later in the year, moglen and stallman are still tuning it [16:15] but, getting closer [16:15] saw the article on wired [16:15] it should be out no later than october, i hear [16:15] ok [16:15] AFAIK GPL3 will be available 2007 at the earliest [16:16] --> lgp-michael (n=michael@argh.tuxgames.com) has joined #indie-sig [16:16] as for an oss sig, perhaps if there's a tools and middleware sig established we should try and push for them to support an oss movement within that sig [16:16] --> TinyIRC (n=tinyirc@81-178-248-51.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #indie-sig [16:16] perhaps [16:17] --- TinyIRC is now known as zoombapup [16:17] there's also OSS games too though [16:17] the IP rights sig would also be good to talk to about oss [16:17] brb.. [16:17] --> tbennett (n=tbennett@thug.moberg.com) has joined #indie-sig [16:17] i think a game being open source or not is immaterial to it being commercial, indie, or anything else [16:18] hm... perhaps. some people make the distinction more firmly than others [16:18] stallman probably would [16:18] as carmack has shown, even a good commercial engine can be open (even if its done so at the end of its life cycle) [16:18] true [16:18] and garagegames is semi-oss friendly [16:19] (OpenTNL, sourcecode when you buy Torque, etc) [16:19] well, most if not all engines you get source to when you license it [16:19] --> k45 (n=k45@209.163.206.236) has joined #indie-sig [16:19] true, but Torque is more accessible to Indies than most, on purpose of course though [16:20] on purpose of cost, too [16:20] yes [16:20] that's what I meant,, costwise [16:23] having all rights to software assigned to FSF is really no better than a M$ monopoly, even if they do release source code (and not just "shared" source releases) [16:23] anyway, we're spinning off track [16:23] ok [16:24] hmm, to say the license that around 70% of all OSS software willingly uses, including the Linux kernel, "sucks" is a bit drastic without any reasoning [16:24] it doesnt suck as much because of what it does but why it does it [16:24] it forces code to stay open, but makes using code the same [16:25] when a license like the lgpl is better [16:25] heh, well I feel that both gates and stallman have a place in the world - they provide the goalposts, stick somewhere between them and you will be ok, if you find yourself going further right than gates or further left than stallman - STOP [16:25] changes still have to be public, but using code doesn't have to be open [16:25] hehe [16:25] well that's up to the releaser to decide [16:25] lgp-michael: well put [16:25] the developers that have chosen it have had the option to choose something else, clearly they've wanted things to work like they do with the GPL [16:26] slux: exactly [16:26] im not always sure of that; a lot of them seem to go gpl without actually considering things first, because its the best known open license [16:26] what might be good would be: original developers/contributors should have the right to close their section of the code... which most people I've talked with about it seem to agree with [16:26] and assigning rights to the FSF is only required if you want to be a GNU project just like it requires you to use a certain coding-style. No-one forces you to be a GNU project. [16:26] like any business or legal matter, close consideration should be paid before making any decision [16:27] anyway, we can agree that the topics of the indie sig should be primarily on self-published, channel-published, and open source games? [16:28] it's really just to allow FSF to legally defend GNU projects and to avoid the kind of mess that Linux has with hundreds, perhaps thousands rights owners [16:28] coldacid: I agree with that [16:28] I have to say that in developing commercial applications, we've found no problem in working with the LGPL - its allowed us to use the libraries, and feed back into them, they help us, we help them, everyone wins [16:28] lgp-michael: i agree, i've also found the lgpl to be useful [16:29] --> fundemic (i=fundemic@user-6701.lns1-c11.dsl.pol.co.uk) has joined #indie-sig [16:29] perhaps more so than the mpl, since afaik the mpl allows for changes to not be made public [16:30] it's interesting that there is quite an overlap between Indie and OSS game devs... [16:30] anyway, what coldacid said: [16:30] can we agree that the topics of the indie sig should be primarily on self-published, channel-published, and open source games? [16:31] yep [16:31] sure [16:31] ok [16:32] btw, the igf seems to have a good definition of what constitutes indies and what doesn't. it's more strict than the definition the sig takes, but i'll state it here (once i find it again) [16:33] "must not be in any way affiliated with or sponsored by any member firm of the Entertainment Software Association... nor ELSPA" [16:33] hm [16:34] thats not exactly informative [16:34] are any of the channels that indies publish thru (Valve's Steam for example) associated with those? [16:34] i think that Valve might be an ESA member [16:34] Valve's been associated with Sierra in the past, and EA supposedly too... [16:34] valve is probably in the ESA [16:34] so, that seems a bit strange... [16:35] actually, it seems they aren't [16:35] and GarageGames people were originally from Sierra as well... [16:35] http://www.theesa.com/about/esa_members.php [16:35] does it matter what you call it.. most people consider indie as "not got a ton of funding and not being pre-paid by some other entity" kinda thing [16:35] yeah [16:35] what ever you call a spade, it still digs :) [16:35] there's another thing to tackle: what about self-funded games [16:35] yeah [16:35] that still get published by a big publisher? [16:35] it's rare, unique even [16:36] but i do believe it has happened before [16:36] also, IGF has opened to mods now... [16:36] yeah, they have [16:36] and a lot of student indies do mod games... [16:36] so I don't know about not focusing on mods... [16:36] :S [16:36] this is the first year for mods i think [16:36] yeah [16:36] I think the IGF have gone mental... from some of what Ive been told [16:36] so we may need more mod resources as that grows [16:36] well, based on the survey results it seems that modding is not important [16:36] 71 people... [16:37] modding is probably better off with its own sig [16:37] not the biggest pool... [16:37] yes, perhaps [16:37] how many people are on the sig mailing list? [16:37] I'll have to look, just a sec [16:37] ok [16:38] * DRaTRePuS looks at all the ppl -----> [16:38] o_O [16:38] --> Dominea (n=Animegal@24-55-225-179.miamfl.adelphia.net) has joined #indie-sig [16:38] better turn out here than in RL [16:38] ;p [16:38] hehe [16:38] :) [16:39] DRaTRePuS: actually had quite a good meet with only 4 people this monday... [16:39] Hi guys [16:39] hello [16:39] coldacid: still looking [16:39] hi [16:39] alright [16:39] --> fydo (i=fydo@smaug.rackdragon.com) has joined #indie-sig [16:39] good morning [16:39] er afternoon [16:39] hehe [16:39] Just got out of AI class I figured Id come join in on the meetin [16:39] ;) [16:39] good afternoon [16:39] ok [16:40] --- Dominea is now known as RayChandler [16:40] this might be a more apprropiate name for me here :) [16:41] in that case [16:41] --- coldacid is now known as ChristopherChara [16:41] damn [16:41] --- ChristopherChara is now known as ChrisCharabaruk [16:41] my name is too long :( [16:41] lol [16:41] lol [16:42] I like handles [16:42] --- ChrisCharabaruk is now known as coldacid [16:42] but [16:42] but... [16:42] * zratchet is MichaelLubker [16:42] in RL ;) [16:42] oh [16:42] just a question, to see how widespread we are [16:42] where are we? [16:42] Austin, TX here [16:43] Toronto, Ontario, Canada here [16:43] <-- austin [16:43] Im in Orlando florida [16:43] Calgary, AB [16:43] Cheshire UK [16:43] lancs, uk [16:43] Oakland, Ca [16:43] Edmonton, AB [16:44] good showing in north america and england [16:44] and to answer your question coldacid: 71 people in the IGDA Indie SIG list, probably *not* the same 71 that did the survey as some of those are known to be from Gamedev.net [16:44] strange coincedence though [16:44] would be interesting if there were some doujin game developers from japan, though [16:44] that is pretty strange [16:45] Austin (and only half paying attention) [16:45] anyway, do we have the first question discussed to our satisfaction? [16:46] I think so... [16:46] anyone think not? [16:47] the "What type of games are you interested in making?" question? [16:47] what was the answer? [16:48] I prefer arcade and card game/puzzle for indie game devolopment [16:48] answer was we should focus on self and channel published games and OSS games [16:49] for the Indie SIG (website, forums, articles, etc) [16:49] anyway, we'll move on to the next one [16:49] Question 2: Does the Indie SIG Site need a redesign? [16:49] OSS beicng operation system specific? [16:49] 17 for aye, 11 for nay [16:49] no [16:49] OSS being open-source software [16:49] OSS = opensource software [16:49] ahh [16:49] ;) [16:49] WOOT! [16:49] ;) [16:49] I agree with that to some extent [16:50] while few answered the site design question, those who did for the most part agree that the site needs a redesign [16:50] it works out to approx. 61% [16:50] I think the current site is functional, imo a redesign would be for aesthetic improvement only [16:51] well to some extent asthetics is important [16:51] personally, i think it would be useful to automate the announcements (perhaps make use of the igda site's use of movable type) [16:51] please them all... Redesign and give option to reg users... [16:51] but then again an image is only as important as the functionality [16:51] as well as organize resources available and aggressively hunt for more [16:52] recent research also showed that in less than a blink of an eye, a person can decide whether or not they think the site is useless [16:52] coldacid: good point [16:52] first opinion is apparently more important for the web than meeting people [16:53] I think a new design would benefit us to a great extent [16:54] wow I just took another look at it and my eyes hurt [16:54] :/ [16:54] :p [16:54] :P [16:54] heh [16:54] i'm amused by Ray's reaction [16:54] dont go youll turn blind for a period of 5 minutes [16:55] lol [16:55] :p :p lol [16:55] Brigt yellow would be MUCH better : [16:55] you need to go to become in agreement with us ;) muahaha [16:55] <-- zoombapup has quit ("I was using TinyIRC! Visit http://www.tinyirc.net/ for more information.") [16:55] ok ill stop hating on the site but it needs a better design [16:56] i think it would be good to establish someone as webmaster, and empower him or her to redesign the site and work with the igda webmaster regarding the matter [16:56] we should strive to be the best looking IGDA site [16:56] I agree [16:56] i think it looks fine! [16:56] btw i am not nominating myself, but i can help [16:56] :) [16:56] * coldacid goes blind from DRa's comment [16:56] here is a site I designed www.avengersoft.com [16:56] <-- tbennett has quit () [16:56] If you might want to go with something like that I can probably work something out for us [16:57] www.openwebdesign.org is a good place to get designs [16:57] i've personally used it for things like school projects and the gdnet toronto mini-con site [16:57] give me next weekend and ill have us a new design [16:57] Ray: should we take that as your self-nomination for webmaster? :D [16:58] I'll have to get you added to the FTP list... [16:58] I'll nominate myself. WHy not. [16:58] :) [16:58] awesome [16:58] rays site is pretty! [16:59] yeah, nice :D [16:59] btw the rendering on that DRa is from my game engine:) [16:59] anyway, i support Ray for webmaster [16:59] sounds good to me [17:00] now, what about content for the website [17:00] It will have to be next weekend though because I have to program a genetic Algorythm classes this weekend [17:00] do we have a pretty good range of content? [17:00] do we need more interviews, reviews, etc...? [17:00] we need more info on doing ones own publishing and marketing [17:00] as well as team and project management [17:00] especially in regards to distributed and hyperdistributed teams [17:01] someone I've talked to also said we need more legal resources... i.e. sample contracts [17:01] he should be here later on [17:02] legal resources sounds like a great idea [17:02] yes [17:02] And marketing and self promotions [17:02] all that is good content that we should add [17:03] ok [17:03] so is question 2 taken care of? [17:03] for now... [17:03] i think so [17:03] ok [17:03] shall we move to #3? [17:03] sure [17:03] Question 3: Should the SIG have chapters and meetings or just a website? [17:03] 37 yes, 31 no [17:04] <-- fundemic (i=fundemic@user-6701.lns1-c11.dsl.pol.co.uk) has left #indie-sig [17:04] personally i'm in the "no" camp, but i think that the SIG should work with existing chapters with high concentrations of indie developers, such as Toronto, to bring indies more into the limelight [17:04] i'd be happy to hear the opinions of the majority, though [17:04] I'm in the yes camp [17:04] ;) [17:04] I say we should have meetings... weather it be by v-conf or by IRC meeting and talking about games is always a good thing for us [17:05] yes, online meetings are good [17:05] offline meetings are good too [17:05] there is obviously no way well be able to meet in person [17:05] i dont have any vconf equipment or the ability to fly to austin, though [17:05] DRaTRePuS and k45 can attest to that... ;) [17:05] examples of opensource & indi games.. at teh website... say, is this ultimately to maek money? or .. what is the groups purpose? [17:05] true, IRC/vconf/audioconf are good for intl meetings [17:05] cold me and ratachet have been looking at a video conferencing software... all you need is a webcam [17:05] at game conferences, such as gdc if it wasnt so damn expensive, we should have indie sig sessions [17:05] whether hallway sessions or actual panels etc [17:06] YES! [17:06] I agree. I love that idea. Indie meetings at GDC is an excellent Idea. [17:06] Did I say I liek thate SIG have chapters and meetings or just a website? [17:06] 37 yes, 31 no [17:06] DRaTRePuS: yes, we *would* like to make money. though hobbyists are important too [17:06] i can watch and listen, but i can't otherwise participate unfortunately [17:06] not until i have net access at home [17:07] coldacid: we probably should have some support for hobbyist engines, such as BlitzMax and Clickteam's stuff [17:07] we're still on meetings and chapters aren't we? [17:07] coldacid: yes [17:08] we want to have better intl meetings, hence this type of thing (IRC/aconf/vconf) [17:08] anyway, my feelings are that the sig should have regular online meetings, probably twice a month to once every other month [17:08] but we should have localized meetings too [17:08] and should work with chapters rather than having our own [17:08] here in Austin, I'm working on weekly meetings [17:08] I agree with Cold on this [17:08] we've been having monthly meetings but are going to weekly [17:08] by working with the local chapters we'll be able to provide better support, imho [17:09] we meet at a local LAN party center every other week [17:09] they are giving us a custom hard drive image so we can do "mod parties" and show each other interesting websites, games, etc... [17:09] in areas with chapters that have high concentrations of indie developers we should strive to get a sig member in the advisory board [17:09] and the other "every other" week, we meet at tabletop game places [17:09] to do game prototyping and playing [17:10] there are quite a few indies in Austin... [17:10] me of course [17:10] 2 others here on the channel [17:10] :) [17:10] http://www.austingamedevelopers.com/studios/ [17:10] well thats fine but I think coldacid is making alot more esense atm imho [17:11] austin is a special case as you already seem to have an indie chapter beyond the normal igda chapter [17:11] but for everywhere else we should work with established chapters [17:11] If you want to conintue meetings in austint hats great but I think that the indie sig is so widespread that we should focus on online meetings [17:11] and they shouldn't be weekly, the online meetings [17:11] I support monthly for the online meetings [17:12] for the same reason that the igda chapter guide suggests against monthly meetings [17:12] to avoid attendee burnout [17:12]