[16:40:30] * Now talking in #indie-sig [16:40:30] * Topic is 'IGDA Indie SIG Chat | http://igda.org/indie | READ THIS AND DISCUSS: http://igda.org/indie/voti_2007.pdf' [16:40:30] * Set by zratchet on Sun Oct 28 16:10:33 [16:40:38] * coldacid pokes zratchet [16:41:02] I'd like to add to the discussion, but I'm just an interested party, not a developer :( [16:41:05] reading the proposal though [16:41:14] brb [16:45:16] back [16:48:36] echelon3: That's what the sniper in TF2 says when he kills someone :) [16:48:49] oh yeah [16:48:57] damn, shit, obviously I haven't been playing enough [16:49:14] i think the sig plan is a wee bit out of date... last revised jan 11? [16:50:53] likewise Crusader [16:53:59] back [16:54:03] hi coldacid [16:54:14] I was eating [16:54:16] hey z [16:54:18] ok [16:54:26] yeah... I was putting it up for re-editing [16:54:31] good [16:54:34] I guess I could googledoc it [16:55:20] that could be good, but i'd actually suggest putting it on the wiki for draft, and produce a PDF for final releases [16:55:47] we can worry more about that after we get it up to date, though [16:55:51] yeah, the IGDA wiki would work as well [16:56:51] i wish there was a working printer here, it'd be easier than switching from mirc to firefox and back [16:57:34] tmccrary: about being turned away at meetings, Austin is REALLY fractured right now... we have seperate communities for "pro-dev-only", the open main IGDA forum which only has meetings once in a great while + the forums, my group (indies), plus groups at our 2 gamedev univ programs [16:58:10] coldacid: screen not big enough for both side by side? [16:58:22] nope, it's just a regular 3:4 [16:58:32] ic [16:58:39] * zratchet has 1440x900 [16:58:39] You need one of these my friend: http://www.seventh-sun.com/tmack/IMG_4290.JPG [16:58:41] :) [16:58:47] it'd be nice to have a widescreen or a dual setup here [16:58:51] I could never use anything else again, I would cry [16:58:59] *drool* [16:59:06] my dad's system looks similar to that... [16:59:12] I have a macbook pro personally [16:59:19] dualboot vista/leopard [16:59:38] all tf2 servers are empty [16:59:45] that's odd [16:59:48] is that yours, tmccrary? which ubuntu is it? looks edgy to me [16:59:55] oh and the 3ds max box is there because I have a copy, I just don't use it. Someone in the garagegames forums said we use blender because we can't afford max and I just have to prove him otherwise :) [17:00:07] I was playing tf2 a LOT during the beta at our local lan center, plenty of players there [17:00:08] It was edgy when the pic was taken [17:00:15] All of our machines are running gutsy now [17:00:20] lol [17:00:21] that was from like 2-3 months ago [17:00:32] i still run edgy at home, the computer i currently have to use isn't powerful enough to run anything newer [17:00:35] my devs run ubuntu. I'm the compat lab :) [17:00:55] my devs on snowballz are on like P3 350/Radeon 16MB lol [17:01:01] but we've made a great game [17:01:04] * coldacid wishes his own system didn't die [17:01:07] at least, I hope it's great [17:01:21] have gotten good feedback [17:01:24] P2 350 / Rage II here [17:01:28] can i play? [17:01:31] for me [17:01:38] competitive play and a big community is most important\ [17:01:53] so what was brought up in yesterday's chat/in-person meeting? [17:01:56] i can play pong if there is alot of competition and players [17:01:58] still working on the community, but we already have 4 stars on LGT [17:02:12] yeah, I downloaded snowballz but I haven't ran it yet because I am working on a some skeletal animation system "features" and haven't had the time to grab the deps [17:02:27] coldacid: not much, no one in IRC yesterday, mainly was just a couple new people locally and I and another local IGF entrant showing our games [17:02:39] though the new guy did show some interesting homebrew iPhone stuff too :) [17:03:06] tmmccrary thx, let me know what you think at zratchet at gmail dot com [17:03:10] will do [17:03:12] :) [17:03:22] can i play it? [17:03:51] http://joey101.net/snowballz [17:04:00] its a little funky to install, but if you don't mind that... [17:04:16] we're working on a nice non-l33t-ppl windows installer coming soon! [17:04:26] :p [17:04:46] lol at the installs [17:04:53] k [17:04:57] You will need to make sure that you have all of these items installed on your system. If you are using Linux most of these should be in your distro's repositories. [17:04:57] Python 2.4 (or 2.5) [17:04:57] pygame [17:04:57] PyOpenGL [17:04:57] Rabbyt [17:05:13] i dont think i have any [17:05:19] they're all really fast, we just want to package it up into one install [17:05:31] we need to put the alternate easy_install method on that page too [17:05:53] you can download python and easy_install and use easy_install to grab the rest [17:06:20] AND easy_install will let you keep things up to date nicely too [17:06:37] actually i can start wikiing it now for editing... [17:06:45] ok coldacid :) [17:06:57] how often is there a meeting [17:06:59] any more comments on the doc to discuss in the topic, anyone? [17:07:05] echelon3: when we call one :p [17:07:14] when we have time [17:07:38] we should have one every quarter, really, but it's more like every 9-12 months :p [17:07:42] I try to have monthly meetings locally, but this intl group gets the short straw sometimes unfortunately [17:07:43] what kind of deals can you snag on middleware? [17:08:07] not much yet... but that's something in the paper. the IGDA already has some discounts [17:08:21] aye.. that'd be where i saw it ;) [17:08:37] http://www.igda.org/join/discounts.php [17:08:48] sweet, thanks [17:09:26] I'd like to improve that for Indie SIG members though [17:10:00] id not even thaught of looking for discounts... but then were not at any stage where we can start implimenting other code sections yet [17:10:30] you can get a lot of free middleware these days thru the OSS community [17:10:44] and garagegames is relatively cheap [17:11:47] anyway... I have a couple questions to throw out [17:12:09] yeah.. draft plan is using open source stuff [17:12:10] where have you had the best luck finding poeple for your project? [17:12:26] need the core to work properly before we can start worrying about that hto ;) [17:12:39] and if any, what marketing plans have you used to get devs or testers etc [17:12:51] heh.. well.. personal friends is the only place iv looked [17:13:01] or for final products, any good marketing ideas out there? [17:13:21] lmao... yeah.. one or two.. but i doubt very much you will agree [17:13:41] were having a campaign of being agressive and unfriendly, trying to chase people away [17:13:50] i swear itll work ;) [17:14:10] lol [17:14:30] what project are you working on OOPz ? [17:14:45] our mktg plan is kind of based on Asian games [17:15:08] well.. its not really a 'game' game.. so scaring the moron public away will keep the user base... erm... skilled [17:15:12] Ad-supported + collectibles both online (item store) and trading cards (think Pokemon) but with a twist - the trading cards are powerups for the game too [17:15:18] ah lol [17:15:43] I see my game as a 3Free project ( free to play, free to make, free as in OSS ) [17:15:59] i cant find the install for rabbyt [17:16:06] yeah.. similar here [17:16:10] hope to make deals with portals to distribute in exchange for ads in the game [17:16:24] (which would be affiliate to us so we make money off them) [17:16:45] 'portals'? [17:16:56] http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/Rabbyt/ [17:16:57] meaning 'clients'? [17:17:06] portals = oberon, real, etc [17:17:11] xbla [17:17:16] yes [17:17:20] With our game, "The Pixelantes," we're going to keep our price low, $9.99 is our current estimate and also try to do some ingame ad stuff [17:17:29] our game will be free [17:17:34] might have some subscriptions [17:17:39] and the card packs of course [17:17:55] The thing that sucks about lowballing on price is it gives the impression it's that way because no one would pay more [17:17:57] free with advertising, subscription to have an ad free universe here [17:18:01] subscriptions for like a virtual card/wk, etc [17:18:05] yeah, maybe [17:18:07] as in it's cheap or shoddy [17:18:12] or no fun :( [17:18:24] yeah.. thats true [17:18:29] well... look at runescape or maplestory ;) [17:18:31] So part of our strategy is to make it know that it's cheap in price... but it isn't a cheap game [17:18:34] 'straight to discount bin' [17:18:41] "make it known" [17:18:52] oh, download link right at the bottom >< [17:19:06] acclaim etc are doing it [17:19:58] another idea of mine is to do a line of minis [17:20:04] with stats and all [17:20:07] but make them plushies [17:20:29] minis for kids... no lead, no sharp points ;) [17:20:52] webkinz leads the way kinda there [17:21:48] anyway [17:21:58] ..................... I feel like I'm talking too much [17:22:04] -_- [17:22:20] biggest problem iv got right now is naming this thing..... every damn .com name worth having is already taken ;) [17:22:23] any thoughts on the SnowballZ website? [17:22:32] any of you? [17:22:40] mm [17:22:45] That's good idea, but isn't it hard to get the capital to have a run of those made? I imagine design and manufacturing on dolls like that can't be cheap [17:22:47] a lot of indies seem to be using .info [17:22:59] yeah, that's what partners are for [17:23:27] IMO anything other than .com is a cop-out [17:23:27] advertise their products in game ;) [17:23:30] our site is sad right now: http://www.seventh-sun.com [17:23:46] I saw [17:24:11] heh... 'coming soon' [17:24:11] our studio site is like that too [17:24:11] zeolitestudios.com [17:24:11] the internet words for 'dont hold your breath' [17:24:11] http://www.seventh-sun.com/tmack/drawing.png [17:24:42] With our site, we're going to try and keep it fairly basic for the most part, not many sections just a little bit of info [17:24:44] For now the current development is frozen - incidental pun, considering our game is about antarctic stuff ;) [17:24:56] hehe [17:25:00] now.. im in a definate minority here... so feel free to totally ignore me but... that looks fixed width [17:25:10] with huge expances of wasted space on the sides [17:25:18] There we go, revision 6 is now on the wiki at http://www.igda.org/wiki/Indies_SIG/Action_Plan [17:25:23] it may be... we can adjust it [17:25:25] i would likely close that page asap not hang around reading stuff [17:25:58] my "group"'s site: www.deathcake.com [17:26:03] no content whatsoever! [17:26:08] its almost like you need a "optimize for 4:3/16:9 toggle" for websites these days [17:26:23] That image I linked to was all done in Inkscape BTW [17:26:30] I use a 16:9 but I know a lot are still 4:3 [17:26:33] my 'group' uses a wiki hidden in a hidden directory on a comercial server... for a company that doesnt know we are there ;) [17:26:41] lol [17:26:54] heh [17:27:06] We're using XWiki for our wiki, it's pretty awesome [17:27:17] So far, it's the best wiki i've used [17:27:33] deathcake = :( [17:27:48] dont recall which one i put up... picked it for 2 reasons, easy, pure php setup.. no sql access required [17:27:55] I've used MediaWiki, PHPWiki, DokuWiki, SeedWiki, and MoinMoin [17:28:10] actually im going to move this to Indie_SIG/Old_Action_Plan [17:28:15] ok [17:28:17] mediawiki is the best i've ever used [17:28:23] I know many use it [17:28:31] including wikipedia :) [17:28:37] and supertux [17:28:45] one of the best PC platformers ever IMO [17:28:46] ;) [17:28:47] XWiki runs on Tomcat, Java stuff. We have a bunch of Java app servers for backend stuff in our cage, so it made sense [17:29:05] joomla works with dokuwiki [17:29:14] but right now we're using googledocs more than wikis [17:29:57] oh?... im doing a band's site with joomla ATM.. havnt considered a wiki.. could be handy [17:30:46] (gunna move my code wiki to their site later.... their MUCH less likely to find it ;) [17:32:33] 'Work with developers and venues in major US game development areas' [17:32:36] why US? [17:32:52] very americocentric [17:33:21] (which the rest of the world is.. franlky, getting sick of) [17:33:26] just as a start [17:33:42] all our coordinators are in the US so far [17:34:31] It's funny how touchy people outside the US are about that kind of stuff [17:34:35] At least to me anyway :) [17:34:44] where are you from OOPz ? [17:34:57] thats cos the rest of us dont tend to draw so many lines in the sand [17:35:04] zratchet, origionally?... my mother [17:35:16] Not to start a flame war, but isn't that what you're doing? [17:35:42] if you say so [17:37:47] OOPz lol - I meant what country [17:38:18] i know you did, point is, nationality is totally irrelevent [17:38:41] but... your 'just as a start' is sufficient [17:39:39] wanna get into europe asap tho.. im guessing, but i suspect youll find more independants scattered around western europe than in the states [17:40:03] (given that they will, more often not be able to get any form of sponsorship) [17:40:48] OOPZ does bring up a good point regarding internationalization (whew) [17:40:57] actually brings up an interesting thing i was reading the other day about how national personalities come thru in games [17:41:20] With our game, I would like to translate into as many different languages as possible [17:41:22] we could certainly try to put a presence in at things like Leipzig and the London Game Fair [17:41:38] As being english only limits our potential customer based greatly [17:41:43] probably should consider TGS and things like that too [17:41:47] aye [17:41:51] I could deal with out game getting David Hasselhoff syndrome [17:41:57] "It's huge in germany" :) [17:42:05] we haven't translated snowballz yet, but we got basically /.'d by a site similar to slashdot for french/spanish speakers [17:42:05] "deal with our game" [17:42:16] luckilly with well planned software its easy enough to do... just have a single language file per :) [17:42:27] I really want to target asian countries with The Pixelantes, especially japan, south korea and china [17:42:45] one of my dev friends is in china, another in japan right now [17:42:58] and some other dev friends are from the philipines [17:43:04] zratchet: did we ever get jason to look through and comment on the action plan particulars? [17:43:15] yeah, our game has the ability to be translated easily, it's just a matter of finding people who can translate everything reliably (and costing too much) [17:43:21] not really, he's just busy I think [17:43:24] ^ coldacid [17:43:32] ok [17:43:42] heh.. yeah, cost can be a major factor in translations :/ [17:43:45] I mean, I'm thinking: English, Spanish, German, French, Russian, Chinese, Japanese and Korean for starters [17:43:47] and I haven't heard from Ray in a Looong time [17:44:03] But if it costs 100k to get all that done, we'll have to compromise somehow [17:44:03] im not sure if the igda could actually do some of them, but my understanding of californian nonprofit law is practically nonexistant [17:44:08] localization is fun for qa too... I know :p [17:44:29] yes... I'm seriously considering setting up an org for some stuff [17:44:41] IVGA perhaps (indie videogame association [17:44:41] mainly, the commercial services [17:44:43] Badly translated stuff can be worse than no translation sometimes I think [17:44:55] All your base are belong to us ;) [17:44:57] all your base are belong to us [17:44:59] ;) [17:45:02] LOL [17:45:05] jinx [17:45:12] tmccrary: badly translated stuff can still be awesome tho. just watch Shinesman. [17:45:24] well, I suppose that's true in some cases as well [17:45:25] dubbed and subtitled at the same time even, you'll laugh so hard [17:45:27] or a lot of animes [17:45:41] But when that happens, you're laughing AT the company and not WITH the company for failing so utterly [17:45:42] sorta ruins the emersion tho ;) [17:46:16] coldacid my latest idea is def. needing to be its own org [17:46:24] there are steam-like services available to indies these days, eh [17:46:31] what idea is this? [17:46:39] basically a tithing system for those indies which ahve enough, to make a fund for various stuff [17:46:42] let me grab... [17:46:47] our game launches from the web and installs itself [17:46:59] oh, yeah [17:47:11] you told me about that but could certainly open it to comment here [17:48:42] Project Codename: AeGIS [17:48:42] --- [17:48:42] AeGIS stands for Austin Games, Indie Style. My idea is a non-profit [17:48:42] organization based on a tithe. Basically indie studios who want to be [17:48:42] a part of AeGIS would contribute 10% of their earnings into a pool. [17:48:43] 50% of those earnings would then be used to donate to charities and/or [17:48:47] game industry functions such as VGVN, or to enable the Austin Game Community to work better - like donating to the Game Archive (this refers to something going on here in Austin) or to set up a QA Testing lab that all local Indies can use, or to fund our magazine ideas (on the IGDA wiki/forums to some extent). The other 50% would have a rule that every month, indies in a local area can bid to split up the amount on costs and purchase [17:48:52] s they need to cover. [17:48:54] erg [17:48:58] grr... posted before I was done [17:49:04] replace Austin with Local [17:49:09] lol [17:49:15] LoGIS? [17:49:23] yeah, not sure of the name [17:49:28] that'd have to be figured out [17:49:45] LoGIStics lol ... because a lot of it would be [17:50:00] sounds like corporate union or co-op [17:50:13] yeah, coop [17:50:19] erm... did i miss something?.. what does the user get out of that deal? [17:50:24] indiegames.coop [17:50:38] it's not a user thing, it's for the developers themselves [17:50:50] yes... dev=user [17:50:53] to share and reduce the costs of development [17:51:14] access to funding, local QA labs, etc etc [17:51:23] could be different for each area depending on what the area needs most [17:51:35] wikify this too I guess coldacid [17:51:44] gotta go... ttyl [17:51:54] * wansti (n=wansti@b131.apm.etc.tu-bs.de) has left #indie-sig [17:52:07] i'd need a bit more to go on, like an already written document [17:52:20] that's all I have so far [17:52:36] pish.. doccumentation is for people who want to actually get things done ;) [17:52:45] + right [17:52:57] true [17:53:02] yes... [17:53:11] that's what the wiki's for though [17:53:15] to hammer it out [17:53:52] im more a fan of singlar vision myself... as soon as you start letting everyone have their say, then nobody is 100% happy [17:54:08] yeah, small teams are the way to go [17:54:16] at least for "direction" [17:54:27] teams would still be free to set their direction [17:54:47] 'Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule' - Friedrich Nietzsche [17:54:48] it'd just be a coop to participate in, to lower costs for major purchases (or group purchase stuf with other local teams) [17:55:36] I def. think a testing lab that was open to the public, lan party center style could be useful... have computer donations, and get people to focus test your games [17:55:43] Sounds cool, it would be nice to have a place with a ton of different machines, which different configurations, with which to try everything out on [17:55:56] now that would be handy [17:56:10] IDC -- Indie Developers Co-operative [17:56:25] 10% handy tho.... not so sure [17:56:29] gamesindev.coop ;) [17:56:47] yeah, that's why I wanted to open it to comment, figure out the percentages etc [17:57:00] maybe a scale depending on profits/team size etc [17:57:07] well.. i could certainly get behind a free testing group [17:57:14] 10% is just based on the biblical tithe :p [17:57:19] you test mine, ill test yours sorta thing [17:57:23] yeah [17:57:25] I think that would be massively handy, can you say "flaky ATI hardware?" :) [17:57:26] 10% is a hard sell tho [17:57:34] and opening to public could be useful to some extent [17:57:41] a lan party that has REALLY new games ;) [17:58:03] I use ATI... not too flaky for me [17:58:03] lol [17:58:21] maybe on linux? [17:58:29] any platform [17:58:34] though my devs are on linux, they use ati too [17:58:41] I've had more problems with nvidia than ati [17:58:42] :p [17:58:43] Although, not all of their products, but I've ran into a lot of strange problems with ati [17:58:50] at least with opengl [17:58:55] hm [17:59:00] Their opengl implementations kind of suck usually [17:59:19] I did have to do some driver hacking to get gl to work right in vista [17:59:24] but on osx all fine [17:59:46] don't remember if I was on nvidia or ati when I was still messing with beos [18:09:30] so... anything else? [18:12:04] okay, got a page on the coop [18:12:13] http://www.igda.org/wiki/Indies_SIG/Ideas/Indie_Developers_Co-operative [18:14:38] k, ty [18:14:53] can eventually massage that into a normal page :) [18:14:56] It might a good idea to put some future items on there, such as: how is time divvyed up? How does priority work on the equipment? etc [18:15:15] you realise thats fundamentally flawed right? [18:15:20] some type of point system could be useful [18:15:27] nobodies going to let you see their accounts [18:16:11] I don't want to [18:16:20] I can see what you mean there thoguh [18:16:22] *though [18:16:31] * helget (n=hm@217-33-233.231210.adsl.tele2.no) Quit [18:17:04] i was thinking a 'the more you pay, the more discount you get' system... but, that totally defeats the purpose [18:18:13] * zratchet changes topic to 'IGDA Indie SIG Chat | http://igda.org/indie | http://igda.org/wiki/Indies_SIG | Forums: http://tinyurl.com/3sre9' [18:20:49] * zratchet changes topic to 'IGDA Indie Game Dev SIG Chat | http://igda.org/indie | http://igda.org/wiki/Indies_SIG | Forums: http://tinyurl.com/3sre9' [18:21:05] :) [18:21:20] .... [18:23:06] so... anything else? [18:23:32] brb [18:23:38] k [18:25:29] back [18:25:32] * zratchet watches anime while the crickets chrip [18:25:36] *chirp [18:26:05] for right now, not much [18:26:12] ok [18:26:16] at some point we should look again at org structure [18:26:23] any ideas on revision of the action plan? [18:26:28] esp. with what i've been asking p&m lately [18:26:38] yeah [18:26:45] we need to study the feasability of some of it [18:27:00] yes [18:27:06] right now building up sig membership and establishing indie caucuses in various chapters should be priority one [18:27:31] and get P&M input once they're done with their retreat [18:27:39] austin as aigd, and ive been considering an indie caucus here in toronto since the chapter organizers here aren't too interested it seems [18:27:41] yea [18:28:05] we could post in the other chapter forums and see about organzing stuff [18:28:10] i wonder if i should try joining p&m at some later point [18:28:14] see who's indie there, who answers [18:28:46] i think for now it's better to find an indie partisan at each chapter and see what they can work out, before doing a big push for each chapter, yeah [18:29:09] as we get more sig participation it'll be easier to find people at each chapter with an interest [18:29:53] also, it would be good if the sig could get some space at gdc [18:30:57] I plan to run for stuff as well [18:31:01] btw, the idea of a newbie SIG -- is it really one worth following through on? [18:31:10] not sure [18:31:24] we can still accomodate the hobbyists to some extent [18:31:31] I'm also considering an abandonware sig, though that may fall under the preservation stuff [18:31:47] as for org newbies, that's more of a general thing [18:31:53] yeah, it'd be under preservation [18:32:24] certainly the biggest things to do is get more participation and buy-in with the sig [18:32:28] my thoughts are more like pushing for opening up abandonware source after a certain amount of time [18:32:54] and then leverage the sig membership to lobby tools and services providers for better access for indies, as well as forming indie caucuses in regular chapters [18:33:17] sometimes that can't happen, especially if the developers threw out the source at the end of product lifecycle [18:33:34] that's why there are things like the game archive [18:33:38] being worked on [18:33:56] yeah [18:34:22] at least if the program itself is archived, and one knows what c/c++ runtime is linked to it and the compiler used to build it [18:34:32] reverse engineering can do some of the recovery of the code [18:34:48] http://www.cah.utexas.edu/projects/videogamearchive/index.html [18:35:04] it would be very useful if say, after 5 years things were open sourced [18:35:14] generaly they aren't worth that much anymore, besides Starcraft [18:35:36] lol, true [18:35:57] well, as long as john carmack is happy we'll be getting open source fps engines [18:36:08] the tech will just be out of date [18:36:54] some Q3 mods are pretty amazing even if they are out of date [18:37:25] quite true [18:37:54] it'd be nice if valve would release access to the goldsrc engine for free, even if it remained closed source [18:38:08] yes... freeware is better than nothing [18:38:17] they did some amazing stuff, bringing what was originally the Q1 engine to somewhere between q2 and q3 [18:38:38]