IGDA Focus
| <b>Advocacy</b> (voicing a collective opinion on issues of public debate) | 28 |
| <b>Benefits</b> (providing discounts and access to tools and services) | 2 |
| <b>Community</b> (building a global network of peers, sharing knowledge/experience) | 53 |
| <b>Craft</b> (advancing the craft of making games, teaching specific techniques) | 3 |
| <b>Information</b> (generating and providing industry data and best-practices) | 6 |
| <b>Standards</b> (establishing and setting industry standards) | 0 |
| <b>Other</b> - Please explain with a post below... | 2 |
Total votes: 94
Groups:

Comments
Not rellay, it was running for about a year and a half or so before I started going. That's about all I know.
I agree with the point that the Toronto initiative might not have started had a bunch of local developers not organized a central meeting spot. The same could be said for me looking for a job. Would I have found a game biz job had I not gone to the monthly IGDA meetings? Maybe, but it would've been alot tougher. Create a central meeting place for people to gather and let them do the rest. If there is passion and a desire to be involved people will create. Whether the end product is enjoyable or not is up for debate. This is where the IGDA would definitely help. By encouraging or offering advice to us lowly peasants who dream of getting into the industry. This is already very much done at the Toronto chapter meetings and I hope it will continue.
At some point it takes more than simply talking to get stuff done but the monthly chapter meeting is a good start.
Toronto Game Initiative a Working Example
Hm, perhaps the Toronto Game Initiative serves as a good example of IGDA-facilitated local game development activity. While the effort is still finding its legs, it has a good shot. I'm not sure how much you can credit the IGDA for its (possible) success, but it might not have started were it not for the IGDA forums.
rsegal, do you know what the history of your local IGDA chapter is? Was it always an IGDA chapter, or did it have its own independent existence for awhile and then assume the IGDA identity later? That's what happened in the case of Seattle Sputnik. I've never gotten a job through Sputnik; if I had, I wouldn't attribute that to the IGDA, as it was not the IGDA that organized the local landscape. The credit really goes to Digipen, Microsoft, and a pile of game companies here in Seattle.
Different local regions are more or less in need of organizational help. Seattle certainly didn't and doesn't need any help. I wonder if the IGDA significantly helps regions that are weak on game development? Or does the IGDA end up being just a faceplate? I really don't know.
What does the IGDA do for other local chapters? Anything?
Well in my case it helped get me a job. Mind you it took a few months for people to start recognizing me. Eventually however it led me to two different job opportunities. That's the best job hunting results I've had in my life.
Does the IGDA currently actively promote this type of event? Not that I know of. It's sort of a side feature of the monthly social meeting. Maybe it would be worth it to make some of the monthly meetings job fairs for game companies.
What does the IGDA do for local chapters?
Our Seattle Sputnik chapter is not closely tied to the IGDA. It had a long existence before the IGDA and only signed up recently. We don't require people to be IGDA members or pay anything to come to meetings. I don't think we use any IGDA resources to organize meetings. I'm not sure IGDA does anything for us, other than give us a consistent web address. I suppose I should ask the current chair what the relationship is exactly though.
What does the IGDA do for other local chapters? Anything?
Is the IGDA a do-nothing on Craft?
That's a question, not necessarily my opinion. But I'm willing to raise the question: I do think Craft is a weak area of IGDA endeavor.
I chose Craft not because I think it's what the IGDA is about, but because it's important to me and something I'd like to see the IGDA handle. In other words, I didn't follow the letter of Kathy's survey instructions.
I think stating what we want is just as important as impassively analyzing what we've got.
This is the International Game Developers Association. But I feel it usually behaves like the International Game Businesspeoples Association.
For instance, I had an idea about organizing industry celebrities and notables into a Virtual Roundtable service, and somehow linking that up with local chapters. Jason Della Roca totally didn't like the idea, and has the attitude that all of those kinds of efforts should be ceded to outfits like Gamasutra and Gamedev.net. I can appreciate the labor rationality of his stance, but I think he's missing some points about ownership in a volunteer organization.
Gamasutra is not my organization. Gamasutra cannot and will not advocate on issues of Craft in a completely independent manner, being the product of Miller Freeman. Gamasutra is a very useful part of the landscape, but I do not want it to be the entire landscape. And, um, yes I know Miller Freeman is in a management partnership with the IGDA. Although I have no specific beefs at this time, it all strikes me as a tad too cozy.
What's wrong with Gamedev.net? Well, everyone and anyone can join. I prefer some nominal barriers to entry to keep people serious. I advocate having some members-only IGDA forums, for instance. Also, for some accident of history, Gamedev.net is strong on programming expertise, weak on other stuff. I think of Gamedev.net as a "programmer outfit."
In fairness, the IGDA has a few committees dedicated to Craft:
- AI Interface Standards Committee
- Online Games Committee
- Education Commitee, arguably
This is far from a full plate though.
I think the Independent Games Festival is the most important thing happening in industry regarding issues of Craft. But, it has nothing to do with the IGDA. Somehow I spaced that out. As an IGF judge, I'm actually a lackey of Miller Freeman and didn't quite realize it.
It seems I'm not currently doing anything in the IGDA at all. I've had a membership for 2 years... if I were to let it lapse, nothing would change.
The value of Advocacy
Well, duly baited, I'll now discuss why in Kathy's survey I chose (1) Advocacy (2) Craft. I didn't before, thinking everyone had already made various points, weren't listening to each others' points, thought only they could have a point, etc. But this thread is quiet now, so it's a good time to grab the microphone.
It's pretty bloody obvious to me that some organization has to Advocate on behalf of game developers. We've got problems as big as tobacco liability problems. As the former General Counsel of RJR Tobacco International, my Dad defended RJR in lawsuits the world over. I see many similiarities and I have a pretty clear sense of what's at stake. As a US citizen I take First Amendment protections very seriously, even if that's not the law of the land in every country. I think the IGDA is doing a good job on the Advocacy issue and I would pay the membership fee for that alone.
If you're making cutesy footsy games that could never possibly be construed as a threat to society, I can see why Advocacy might not be a big sell for you. Not your issue. Everyone is entitled to support the issues they actually care about, and ignore the ones they don't.
To keep this digestible, I'm going to write about other IGDA functions in another post.
A critical look at the IGDA
If Derek Smart has posted on this thread, then I guess I can feel free to lack tact (not that I have a history of not saying things as I see them)
The following is what I think of the IGDA -- feel free to think I'm a bastard for not believing in the association's perfection
.
I've been thinking about the IGDA today and have come to the conclusion that I have no idea what it actually does and, more selfishly, what it does for me. I've been active for a while on these here forums (as my post count proves), but I still don't have a clear picture of what the IGDA is about. That's a problem -- here's a guy that spent weeks posting on an organization's forum and he can't say what that org is actually doing.
Mind you, I know the whole noble mission behind the IGDA: to help developers and improve the art and all that. What I don't know is how this becomes action, if I donate hundreds of dollars to the IGDA what does it do with it, what actions are done?
So I decided to read the 2002 Annual Report, hoping to see a list of all the things that were done last year. What I read was a short 16 pages report with margins wide enough to drive a bus through. Out of those 16 pages, only four were actually about what the IGDA did, the rest was self-congratulating filler (I mean, 1/8th of the report is just photos of developers). Self-congratulating filler is fine, but I expected more meat in this report.
This is particularly true since the "Actions" section is pretty much just about two types of things: people are in committees writing documents or roundtables occured at the GDC. Just talk. Heck, most documents weren't reported as written, all it said is that some people were working on them. I must say in all honesty that I wasn't impressed -- the documents seemed similar, with a few exceptions, to what one would expect to find in Gamasutra or the gamedev magazine and the roundtables seemed to be very similar to other roundtables at the GDC. It's not that these things aren't interesting, it's that I don't really see what the IGDA adds to them.
I read this report and I get the feeling the IGDA is about talking, not doing anything. Where's the lobbying to publishers to increase developers' situation? Where are the projects for creating incubators to help start-ups with cool game ideas? Where are the measures to help job-seeking developers find a job (and I'm not talking about "breaking into the industry", I'm talking about "my studio closed, now what")? White papers are nice and all, but there are already many websites dedicated to articles on the why and how to create games.
While not really mentionned in the report, the forums here are nice, but there are other developer forums and this one isn't particularly better. They're great to help newbies, but considering this is the game developer's association I'd expect more discussions among pros.
The chapter meetings, however, seem like the heart (right now) of the IGDA. They seem very interesting and useful to those who can attend. Sadly, I'm not among them since the closest chapter to me is 300 km away (I'm in Québec city, they're in Montréal) and I don't have a car. Nevertheless, they seem like a great place to make contacts, talk shop and have fun.
So I'm an indie game developer, soon searching for a new job in the industry (selling games online just doesn't pay) and far from an IGDA chapter. What does joining the IGDA give me right now or at least makes me feel I'm getting? Not much I'm affraid: a subscription to a magazine, a card (useful as a lock-picking tool, perhaps...) and the fuzzy feeling from knowing I'm helping people write reports, attend roundtables (without me) and attend meetings with their peers (again, without me).
The IGDA should be more than that. When I pay my subscription to the IGDA (which I haven't, for lack of money and lack of reason) I'd like to know that I'm really helping change for the better in the industry, that I'm contributing to actions that help me directly and indirectly in having a better career, better work conditions and more creative freedom, that I'm helping gaming become a respected and popular medium that's not just for male teens to enjoy.
Perhaps the IGDA is already doing all of this. In that case, it needs some serious help with communications, because even though I'm part of the community I'm not aware of it.
I don't feel that game design or the skills required need to be so much more refined. Everyone says about the same thing when it comes to those types of questions.
Maybe there needs to be a standard set for what institutions should be teaching prospective game designers. When you look at just about every program out there for game design they are all different.
Now is this something that can be done by the IGDA? Yes and no. I don't think the IGDA has that much push behind it, by with backing from the rest of the game dev industry a rough guideline can be made for each aspect of game development.
Ok let me try and explain alittle more, when I talk to everyone here in the forums I get overwhelmed with all the knowledge. Just to name two, mostly cause they helped me the most, Tom Sloper and Ernest Adams. I think the names speak for themselves. But to get to the point... they give guidelines. And they are part of the IGDA.
So maybe when there is another important meeting maybe it can be brought up. Because they know what is needed and they know is wanted out of the industry. And the industry should chip in on this too, letting institutions know what they need out of future employees.
Sorry if this makes hardly any real sense or adds little help.
I think refining game design and the skills required for it will benefit aspiring game designers by giving them more specific qualifications to aim for.
I agree with whatever you meant by that!
Which straw broke the camel's back?
I said:
That's about as qualified as anything needs to be.
Brandon, with all due respect, this conversation has gone on at board level for at least two years, so implying that you were the catalyst is a stretch.
I appreciate the passion behind your statement:
"Why did we join the IGDA, to have a board tell us everything that we should and shouldn't do? No! This is the International Game Developers Association, and we are the developers. This is our organization. Many of us are extremely intelligent individuals, capable of all sorts of wonderful things. If we allow people to Do them."
Setting aside the fact that every nonprofit has an elected board that delivers umbrella guidance and structure to the org at large, the real challenge we're facing is more along RedBull's comment:
"I am new to the associate, and not in a position at the immediate time to really volunteer much of my time, and not by choice. But I do look forward to helping out as much as I can."
This thread has been very enlightening...watch for the next question in the next monthly bulletin.
Thanks.
Kathy S.
Perfectly said!!! I hope someone with decision making authority is listening to all this. Yes that is a great way for the IGDA to solve part of the issue. I am new to the associate, and not in a position at the immediate time to really volunteer much of my time, and not by choice. But I do look forward to helping out as much as I can. Because I feel that the community within the IGDA has so much potential flowing out of it that it could probably burst.
a two-tier system
Yeah, maybe a two-tier system. A "Full Resources and Effort" tier and a "Volunteer Led" tier. The idea being that in the latter tier, volunteers are expected to come up with most of the resources necessary for implementation, with coordination resources provided by the IGDA. Coordination would require a delegation hierarchy of volunteer coordinators, as Jason Della Roca is not enough to meet all needs.
Very interesting to find that it is a Ghurka Army knife, I have talked to a few of the Ghurkas here, most of them have brought thier own personal ones. They are interesting in the fact of hw they are produced, when I get the chance to talk to one again I'll do you the favor and ask about official Army editions.
I agree that a strategy should be brought up and implemented into future directions the IGDA should attempt to go. More or less a outline of things to be brought to the IGDA by volunteers. To help provide ways to focus on hitting topics and interests of the members.
GORKHA ARMY 1036
I don't know how I would tell if it's an original Gurkha Army knife or not. It's got "GORKHA ARMY" and the number "1036" stamped on the blade. Googling around, there are many knives of this style made in Nepal. Mine is fairly plain and functional. I suppose I'd need to ask an expert.
Sound like this might turn out into a positive way of sovling debates on the forum.
And you have definitely come up with some inovative items to use, especially the Ghurka knife! I wonder what knowledge you have of the Ghurka? And I have to say that if I was gonna have a knife, a Ghurka, alittle hard to come by if it's an orginal, is a elite one to have. I also suggest maybe trying farming tools, German riot batons are wonderful cause they vibrate excessively with one blow, kitchen items are a must.
Does Nepal have a large game market? There are Ghurkas in Iraq right now, very interesting, and informative fellows.
Vanevery I would like to team up with you, that is if we can have tagteam bouts during these duels. If not you have my upmost respect if we shall every meet on the battle field.
weapons for game designer beat 'em ups
In real life I'm strictly low tech. Weapons of choice would be any of: 24" baton, 42" riot baton, any 2 of these in combination, or a 6' bo stick. Failing these, I'm happy to use my bare hands.
Erm, that's assuming the match is non-lethal. I mean, I could kill someone using any / all of those, but it would be much easier if I brought something built more to task! Options: 2 14" iron bars, 2 common household hammers - although amusingly my 2nd hammer is a 9.5" baby, good mainly for laughter. Or, if it's really really serious, I'll sharpen up my Ghurka knife. Honestly it's mostly proven its worth on ivy and tall weeds, and I don't keep it sharp lest I hack my own hand off!
Does this remind anyone of the beginning of Dungeon Siege? I'm thinking of training with a Shovel...
I do think alot of people have made the point about the actual members giving additions to IGDA, which is a very sound and righteous point to make. I know speaking for myself and probably alot of other people that the only thing keeping us from doing so is time. But I think even that should improve sooner than later. Maybe we can start now and give a time frame for when we wanna see stuff to roll of the production line. Hey wait maybe not sometimes that doesn't work even in the industry.
Quote: last posted from someone way to intelligent to be human:
"If your not part of the solution...your part of the problem."
Way too narrow minded but oh so true at the same time!
Maybe we could do a 'Adopt a designer, programmer, artist' program with in the IGDA. Ok maybe not, but hey who knows coulda worked.
Also if there's gonna be dueling goin' on, I volunteer for some of that action, and if so is this a weapon of choice thing or are there restrictions involved? And is this small arms or can include up to rockets and missiles?
I think we should riot for the right to play FALLOUT 3! Seriously
Re: IGDA Focus
However, the IGDA is now facing growing pains. While managing limited resources is certainly one of our challenges, at a more fundamental level, with so many initiatives having been sprouted it is difficult to tell what the IGDA truly "stands for". Is it improvement of the craft? Agitating for change in the industry? Working to set industry-wide standards? Or, building social networks via chapters? We may be any number of these things, but we're beginning to realize that we can't be all of these things equally well.
I was going to eneumerate my poll chocies (1. Advocacy, 2. Craft) and then justify them, but instead, I won't. Working on my TBS, Ocean Mars, has taught me to think more strategically.
I may have precipitated Kathy's missive. That said, I may have been but one straw on a camel's back. Recently, Jason Della Rocca and I had a big argument about the idea of a Virtual Roundtable Service. To cut a long story short, I was for, Jason was against. Jason (reasonably) worried about his energies being spread thin. No matter how many burdens are taken on by volunteers, there's always some coordination work for him to do with them. Jason (unreasonably, IMHO) worried about the "focus" of the IGDA being at stake.
I countered that what we really need to do is enhance our ability to mobilize volunteer labor. If Jason isn't enough, then we need more than Jason. If that can't be a paid person, then we have to mobilize volunteers into a delegation system.
Then, Kathy's missive appears.
Frankly, all of the agendas in the poll need doing. And, everybody is going to differ about which agenda is "most important." For any given agenda, someone will YeaSay, others will NaySay. In all instances, Progress comes from Doers, Regress from Talkers. I would like to see an IGDA that's focused on Doing. Not Restricting or Limiting or Guarding or Voting or Controlling or Bickering. If a volunteer is willing to do something, if they will own the problem and marshal the needed resources, then I want to see that volunteer supported.
I have a different managerial theory than Jason does. I think Jason thinks about management as though we're all getting paid a salary. But the reality is, we're all paying dues. I think, in a volunteer organization, volunteers put their energy into what they want to do, and nothing else. They aren't widget labor that you can "focus" into problems that you think need solving. They put their labor into problems they think need solving. A properly mobilized volunteer organization is thus somewhat anarchic. Or Democratic, if you see each act of Doing as a continuous, ongoing vote about what the IGDA is or isn't.
I am sure there are some strategic resources where yes, a high level management group has to make a decision about what will be purused and what won't be. But apart from that, there's a lot of tactical room for Doers to volunteer and get things Done. I see no reason to restrict that or try to "focus" it. It is not profitable from a labor mobilization perspective, it doesn't utilize the large pools of manpower available to us.
Nor is it is equitable from a membership perspective. Why did we join the IGDA, to have a board tell us everything that we should and shouldn't do? No! This is the International Game Developers Association, and we are the developers. This is our organization. Many of us are extremely intelligent individuals, capable of all sorts of wonderful things. If we allow people to Do them.
And, I must emphasize: if they own the problems. That's the golden rule of Volunteerism. You thought it, YOU OWN IT. You're the one who has to Do it, not pass the buck to somebody else.
commie programmer borg!
This is not really intended to be vicious but it might come across that way. Take it as half tongue-in-cheek.
As listowner and a co-moderator of gamedesign-l I can't disagree more strongly. I'm aware of you commie programmer borg no-such-thing-as-a-game-designer types, and all I can say is you're The Other Side. One of my first agendas upon joining the IGDA was to try to "do something" about the status of Game Designers, to get them into a more authoritative position analogous to a Screenwriter in the film industry. Screenwriters have shoppable scripts, why can't we have shoppable games? Instead, all game designing is internal development. Anyways, I rapidly ran up against this programmer commie hive mind brick wall, so I beat a strategic retreat. Computers are so flexible that people have evolved into game development from many walks of life and have many foci. The best I can offer Your Kind is peaceful but guarded co-existence. But, um, not in any company I'll ever run someday.
My whole motive in life is to empower the individual indie as a Producer-Director-GameDesigner.
Oh, and my technical background is 3D graphics programming BTW, so it's not like I don't know how to do something. And in fairness, maybe you're not a programmer but some other kind of commie.
Dueling pistols at dawn for the future of the industry?
It should be known that when someone says What do you associate with something, typically, the answer received is not merely subjective, but personally subjective.
Association, by its nature, asks one to associate with something.
So, when one asks,
It is not necessarily an answer that can be used to define the IGDA, but an answer which reflects the driving factors behind ones involvement with any given area or subject, eg. Game Development.
A game programmers answer will be, information and something that pertains to the activity of programming a game or the implementation of concepts given to the programmer in the form of source code and game functionality.
A game designers answer will be, information and community as the game designer typically focuses on creating a concept, as opposed to implementation of said concept .
A game producers answer will be community and information because that is what the game producer typically deals with every day that s/he is responsible for the production of a game is community and information.
A related example:
The person quoted associated what s/he loves about finding ideas and information that can help her/him in what s/he is doing where games are concerned. Information and Ideas.
I associate more than two things with the IGDA.
If I had answered "Community and Standards" it would have completely changed the current poll standings.
Given that the poll currently states, Advocacy and Community are most associated with the IGDA.
Does IGDA only cater to game activists then? Is that what the IGDA wants as their primary target and mission?
Those at the heart of IGDA are those who are doing the work or those who want to be doing the work or desire to be more active in some area of game development.
However, when it comes to What IGDA is, as opposed to What an individual participant who wants to be involved in developing games (and getting paid for it) associates with IGDA. There is a major difference.
Clearly, there is a need to define terms such as game development, participation in game development, game activism and IGDAs' official role or mission is in terms of game development. In this context, IGDA is a forum.
From another standpoint, IGDA is a repository. From yet another standpoint, IGDA is, and can continue to be a communication medium, targetted on fighting the police state of awful censors and criticizing the prevailing needs and desires of individuals who have absolutely nothing to do with the actual development of any given game and everything to do with their status as consumers.
In closing:
IGDA is not just one thing or another, but it is all of what follows -- do not assume I am prioritizing or, in any way, advocating anything:
The above should be weighted on an individual basis. It should not be limited to one or two associations, as that sort of limiting can only hurt the existing dynamicity of the IGDA.
If the IGDA is to remain dynamic, it can not be locked in to simply one or two foci. It must have the freedom in the truest, most subjective sense of the word, to choose its own mission and its own purpose.
If the IGDA can remains dynamic, then the IGDA can facilitate a more dynamic approach to all those areas that are associated with game development on all of the related conceptual levels that might be perceived as being applied to or for the activity of game development.
When they decided to do a poll, it should have had what we do associate the IGDA and what we don't associate it with.
When I first heard about IGDA I thought, wow this sounds like it's the last and only place I need to go to get great info and ideas. Plus the fact that I could lessen the number of addresses in my favorites folder. But it was not all I had dreamed it to be, but it is one of the best places for developers to go out there.
I think since it is THE "international game developers association" it should be everything it's name is.
> Why should the IGDA move in one certain direction?
>How does it differ from other associations or groups on the internet?
>How can it gain all the great things from them and not bring all the nonsense into it?
>What do oldie and newbe game developers want to gain from IGDA? Not just what they gain now.
I could go on forever as I'm sure everyone else can to.
But I suggest a larger more detailed poll. This would help give the IGDA the answers they need. If you want I'll help with it cause there are a few things I would like to see happen.
*More articles, news, and useful resources for all developers.
If you add more of that I won't have to use any other associations or groups.
*IGDA should be a focal point for game developers not just another spot on the wall to look at.
Hmm
The utility of the IGDA varies greatly depending upon what level you approach it from. Established members who have jobs in the industry are naturally goin to percieve it as a kind of social club, suitable for the exchange of ideas and a great place to bitch about outdated management techniques and marketing driven design.
People who are still breaking into the industry are going to look at it as a way to supplement the nepotism and hard work they've had to endure to try and make games.
The real question is:
Is the IGDA about gaming, or about the people who make games?
I've always felt that it was about the former.
But given the wording of the initial question, I'm thinking that it's really some form of collective bargaining tool.
Not that I object to that. Hell, [good] games designers are the musicians of the 21st Century (i.e. underpaid cash cows), but it's always nice to know where us peons stand.
focus
The IGDA should be dedicated to increasing the quality-of-life of those who make games.
Under that umbrella, initiatives for helping newbies find their feet, supporting community building, working for better work environments, sharing best practices, advocating for better defined career paths, figuring out the art of make really fun games, and expanding the audience for our craft would all fit in.
We already have a lobby (ESA) and I believe individual artisans and studios are the only groups that will push the craft itself forward (the Bachs and Rodins of the world don't come about because of industry groups). Rather than duplicate or supplement these missions, IGDA should continue to blaze the path it has started. IGDA has a unique opportunity to bring people in the industry together--to help the flow of ideas, to help the building of community and to do both not only for enjoyment we derive from it, but so that we may build an industry that is a real joy for all of us to be a part of in every respect, at every step.
We sit on a precipice of becoming a warped amalgamation of some of the worst aspects of both the software and entertainment industries. We have a chance to do things a better way than either of them and the IGDA should be the beacon that we build together to help light the way.
I voted for Community, because I believe that is what an "International Game Developer's Association" should have as it's primary focus. Once a strong community and associated network is in place, a lot of the other concerns will fall into place. Continue to grow relationships, and try to maintain regular meetings and events, because that's what its really about.
My secondary vote was for Information. Set high standards for your formal information programs. Siggraph/ACM and IEEE all have excellent academic papers available. Continue to work with both educational and commercial groups to improve the level of their contribution. Provide outreach programs when possible, to help novices learn how to bridge the gap between research and applied development.
Also set high standards for your informal information, such as: general news, forums, and online meetings. Hire some really good moderators who can act in a neutral manner to coach quality interaction, without becoming emotionally involved in a discussion. Busy game developers, business managers, researchers, and students really don't want to wade through terabytes of raw flaming noise to get or contribute salient information.
Continue the current trend of improving the forum organization. (And please clarify the home page: it is way too busy for someone who just comes through once or twice a month--where the heck is the login prompt, anyway!)
As far as Advocacy goes, I wouldn't worry about it unless something really pressing comes up. Then, if you have Community, it shouldn't be too hard to organize strike forces to take care of a legal issue here and there. I'm against a full-time lobby, as well as unionization. I also recommend against the related issue of government--don't try to provide government for game developers. Would you govern art, music, or literature? Something like the ESRB is fine, but leave it at that.
Finally, regarding industry standards: if there are enough interested people, they should form independent standards committees. I don't believe that the IGDA itself should be heavily involved in the production of industry standards, but keep itself leaner and meaner: focus on the key concepts of Community and Information. By limiting its role as a catalyst for innovation, rather than as implementors of the innovation, the IGDA will avoid becoming bogged down in special-interest activities, and keep touch with its members.
Thanks for your time,
-rjh
I agree 100%. And this is what I was talking about in my earlier postings - especially the one in which Andi (?) mentioned the scholarships of last year. The IGDA needs to provide a plethora of damn good reasons for an industry person to, not only join, but actively participate. Us creative types have a very, very short attention span - not unlike the gamers we are developing games for - as such, its not going to take any one thing to hold our interest in any one medium. Its going to take a heck of a lot more than that.
I must admit, I go to the IGDA chapter meetings out of a sense of duty and support for my local community as well as to network with my friends; the IGDA simply cannot offer me anything I don't already have - or can't get - by just staying camped and entrenched in my office. I'm damn sure a lot of us members feel the same way and those who aren't members don't bother joining for the same reason. People need a reason to join. And when they do, they need reasons to remain committed in order to participate in whatever capacity they can. This is what we [IGDA] are lacking right now. I think.
Everyone wants to be honored. Especially game developers. If the IGDA had some kind of contests, people would enter because you might win. Another way to honor people is to teach. If the IGDA set up some sort of regular seminars with a plethora of useful information, people would go. The GDC could use more breakthrough sessions, but I'm talking about the chapters. How about encouraging the chapters to advertise seminars and workshops on the main page. For example, an advanced GPU programming techniques session at a chapter would motivate me to attend.
Re: Solving Credits
I think Derek said there is little member participation. I think we need to find out why and create a new system around the needs of the members. If meetings aren't working, and you've exhausted ways to maximize their effectiveness, then it's time to try something else to achieve the desired effect.
Thomas J. Allen
There you go - and while I agree with your post, the above excerpt is particularly worthy of note.
btw, I think we've got a credits discussion going already, so lets all mosey on over there and see how far we get.
. This will be my final post in this thread about credits - I see Andi's already made a beeline. 
Solving Credits
I think the credits issue can be solved in a year (that's quick) as long as we focus on the simplest problems first.
Instead of focusing on who gets what credit and why (Derek is right --- for now, that's the project leader/producer's job), we should focus on what the credits ARE so that there is uniformity in credits.
Different companies use the terms producers, project leaders, directors, and even designers interchangeably. This has got to stop. Otherwise, the terms carry different meanings depending on the game or the company.
This is why I stated earlier that standardized credits will enhance the appreciation of certain skills. For once, the skills will be understandable and have a consistent meaning when they are identified. Standardized credits will have defined meanings and hopefully various game-related guilds will be a part of that.
However, if IGDA does not have the "community" involved (if more than half the industry workers are not IGDA members) then maybe now is not the time to start talking about credit standards.
I think Derek said there is little member participation. I think we need to find out why and create a new system around the needs of the members. If meetings aren't working, and you've exhausted ways to maximize their effectiveness, then it's time to try something else to achieve the desired effect.
Thomas J. Allen
Poll Asks Different Question
I just realized that the poll asks us what we associate most with the IGDA. Yet the letter we all read seemed like the poll would be asking where we thought the IGDA should go from here.
This may account for any potential skew.
Again, I hope this poll is an attempt to determine priorities, but the question asked by the poll technically has nothing to do with what we are all talking about --- which is the future of IGDA and what role it can play to help the industry move forward.
It would be nice if we could all start over with a better poll with more than one question, and more specific questions.
Thomas J. Allen
This would work better if chapter coordinators could get their members to do such a poll.....
Which is why I - being the only one so far - voted other.
Because quite frankly, not only is the poll skewed, I simply can't see its usefulness as it pertains to the scope of the discussion. But hey, if the bigwigs want numbers, there you have it. What they do with skewed results, is entirely up to them. But I predict, that this time next year, we won't have progressed much beyond where we are now. One think I know for certain is that the issue of credits won't have been solved by then. 
And speaking of pessimism, most people regard someone's version of harsh reality as pessimism. The good thing about being pessimistic is that at least you stand some chance of being surprised in the long run. Dare to dream.
Note: I believe this poll is also skewed somewhat. Since it has been posted on the IGDA forums, the people voting are obviously going to be those that are more concerned with community (I'm mean really.... that's why we're all here isn't it?). There's really no way around that... but I would take the community number with a grain of salt in comparison to the other words.
This would work better if chapter coordinators could get their members to do such a poll.....
I recent finished a book by Robert Jones titled, "The Big Idea" and I think the core concepts are applicable.
Big Ideas are
1. About the future
2. Value for money
3. Distinctiveness
4. Virtuous
5. Stands for something
6. Worth belonging to
7. Everyone's property
With 61 votes the clear concensus is community.
Community, therefore at this stage, should be the focus IGDA start with. Community should be IGDA's big idea.
With relentless pursuit of this focus, the community should be vibrant enough to address other areas such as advocacy, standards, information, etc.. Without community and community contributions, the organization would be quite shallow.
Side notes:
1. Interested to see how the polls goes from here...
2. The above book is a recommended read
Black Books
The black book idea may sound extreme, but it's really harmless.
I do think it will deter those companies who publish games without giving any credit to anyone at all. I have heard that this has happened, although it may just be a series of mistakes.
Thomas J. Allen
Final Word on Credits
The pessimism on whether or not standardized credits can be achieved is counter-productive. The first step is to abandon that mindset. I refuse to believe that, when each profession is allowed to develop the standardized credits for its specific profession, that people in this business can not come together.
There is far too much personality being displayed on these issues, which could be the very reason that many are alienated from these things. Let's see what we can agree on first before sagely claims of "it can't be done."
Art directors can work on art credits; programmers can work on programming credits... it is simple, it is small, but it will have an impact. It will and should not be one guy at IGDA coming up with a list.
Most of the standardization exists informally --- now we just need to formalize it, and Eric Zimmerman's ideas fall perfectly into place. The guilds could keep "black books" on companies that use non-guild workers and non-guild approved credits.
I was not referring to the gaming press when I said "mainstream press." I believe the mainstream press is either largely ignorant or manipulative when it comes to game coverage. All you need do is view the dozens if not hundreds of Grand Theft Auto stories as evidence of that.
Thomas J. Allen
I appreciate IGDA's efforts in all of these areas, but to me the most important are advocacy, information, community and standards. With community, I believe the IGDA is doing a pretty good job. In the other areas, I would like to see improvement.
At the last annual meeting at GDC 2003, Eric Zimmerman proposed two excellent ideas that seemed to generate a hugely positive response from everyone except a certain publisher representative we all know and love.
One was a "Developer's Bill of Rights" outlining acceptable standards for everything from working conditions, to equitable business agreements, (IP rights & ownership, profit sharing, etc.), and even credits. I think this is an excellent idea the pursuit of which by the IGDA would certainly demonstrate to everyone in the industry exactly what value this organization provides.
The other, more controversial suggestion was a "black book" for developers describing the publishers and rating them against that Bill of Rights. Similar to what is found on most college campuses rating instructors, I think that this, too, is an excellent idea. Of course, publishers will hate it, but only because it will expose their worst practices for all to see. Now tell me how that would be a bad thing?
David Wessman
Lead Designer, Blood Wake
Gameplay & Story Lead, X-Wing series
Returning to the topic at hand, I have always seen the IGDA to have a single purpose:
To promote the development of videogames as a cultural and artistic form of entertainment.
(btw, read development as evolution of the medium, not development in game creation terms)
While this is broad (it covers pretty much everything the IGDA does), I feel it gives a higher sense of importance to activities which do more to achieve this goal.
I would also like to say that there is a huge need for a standardised gaming "language". Has anyone else noticed that we don't even have a universally accepted name for our medium? I use "videogames" above, but many would argue that this excludes PC and arcade games. I believe the IGDA should set up a committee to agree upon standardised terms for videogaming, and publish a small lexiconic paper with accepted definitions for each of these words.
...and how exactly is the issue of credits going to make it any different from how it is now? As I previously mentioned, a good media person knows who to look/ask for.
Why?
And what - exactly - has this got to do with the issue of credits?
No it won't
erm, right.
Again. Standardizing credits is not the problem. The problem is (a) WHY are we doing it? (b) HOW does it help anything? (c) WHAT is the end result of that particular excercise?
Re: The War on Credits
Thats easy. Because its not a small issue. And even if it was, standards, no matter how small, are never an easy thing to dispense of quickly. Its not like the IGDA is going to assign someone to draw up a list of rules and regs related to how its members derive their credits. And even if they did, it won't amount to nothing more than someone - who is probably getting paid for that particularly pointless time wasting excercise - writing an op ed that most are going to read. And ignore shortly thereafter.
And even if by some unexplained miracle it does happen (note: drawing up rules, regs, standards is great - getting people to adhere to them is clearly another matter), how many are going to heed and adhere to said standard? I can just see it now, some producer tells his counterparts at EA that, overnight, the IGDA (that particular suit is probably going to go ....who?) has declared one half of the credits and business cards listings, obsolete. And all have to be redone. I wanna be that fly on the wall. Can I be that fly on the wall? Please? I swear I won't make a sound and I promise not to laugh my ass off.
You folks seem to have this misguided notion that you're dealing with ordinary, rules abiding people. We're developers who, on a good month, can barely pay attention to the simple rules of our niche, let alone some other standard e.g. how many try to use a specific high order shader instruction without checking to see if the bloody card (note to self : cream someone at nVidia for those MX travesties) actually supports that version. I did. And I'm supposed to be damn good at what I do. Thats what I'm talking about. So, while the issue of credits may seem like a small thing, try actually standardizing it and see how it quickly snowballs into a massive mess - complete with dissenting opinions. I for one, don't care either way and thats why I don't use Jack Of All Trades as my credits tagline.
I fail to see how this bears any relevance within the scope of this discussion. Last I checked - and having dealt with almost everyone worth knowing in the media - a press person doesn't go looking for a programmer if he's only interested in writing/talking about artwork or sound. So, I think your point is moot. The media, while they may not understand everything about the industry, aren't stupid. OK, I make no excuses for the unprofessional folks running gaming websites and thinking they're in the media. But when you're talking about mainstream press (I'm thinking gaming press btw), I'm thinking the likes of Denny Atkin, Andy Mahood, Steve Bauman, Rob Smith, Jeff Green etc etc. To say that those guys - and their ilk - barely understands anything in the game industry is. just. plain. silly.
I disagree. If I am an artist and I like doing my art, I'd better appreciate my art for what I do, instead of what is written on some piece of paper or what some producer thinks. Its not who people think you are or what you're worth that matters - its who you think you are and what you're worth that does. And you'd better be doing what you're doing because you love doing it.
....continued
I was stating that EVERYONE wants to be a game designer, but really doesnt understand what they are implying by that, you of all people know that having a vision for a game, doesn't mean you can do it on your own.
and that each person you bring into the mix, adds their own flavour to the game, you cannot stop that.
what you were actually saying was there isnt a need for roll definition.
I was disagreeing with that statement, which is complete tosh. We need to define rolls positions. What I believe a game designer is, would be a Director in a film. He doesnt make the story, he helps shape and interpret it. He doesn't act, he doesnt operate a camera. He sets the scene.
Well gosh, if this isn't a classic case of crossed wires, I don't know what is. I fail to see where in my post what you are indicating is asserted. I think I get what you're saying - and I do agree that the issue of credits probably needs to be standardized. But why? how? what?
If you read my posts carefully, you will see that the point I was making is that I don't see (a) how that could be done - effectively (b) where the already fledgling IGDA fits in - especially since it is lacking in more important areas which need addressing.
And now you probably see why I didn't get what you were disagreeing with me on.
I particularly think that this issue of credits allocation is best left with the project lead - where I think it already is. I mean, its not like dev teams call a meeting, sit down and have a pow-wow on who is going to be what in the credits. I mean, even the people who do the hiring - e.g. HR - should know who and what they're hiring for and as such should have an indication of what a person's credits should be.
IMO the issue of standardizing credits is going to be a time wasting and pointless excercise. There are far too many splinter groups, egotistical developers, under-qualified people trying to pass off skills they don't posses etc etc for it to be anything resembling a standardized system. Its like spam. Sure, you can probably threaten to sue all the North American companies propagating it. But how are you going to deal with the renegades outside North America, e.g. down in China?
Credits
http://www.igda.org/Forums/showthread.php?threadid=6382
New thread on credits. Please respond.
The War on Credits
True, the issue of credits is not earth-shattering. Maybe there are more important issues, but if the credits issue is so small, why can't it be dispensed of quickly with a little effort? It's worth the IGDA's focus since it has been an irritation for many for 20 years.
The mainstream press barely understands anything in the game industry. If you had clear and standardized credit titles for each genre, and guilds promoting the interests of their highly specialized individual skills, it would be easier for non-insiders to get a sense of the structure related to how games are made. You and I might know this by osmosis, but others don't.
I believe standardized credits will lead to a greater appreciation of each skill involved in production, which will in turn lead to celebration of talented individuals for their specific skill sets.
You can only talk about so many "jack-of-all-trade" game designers without losing people's interest --- there aren't many people who fit this description anyway (at least not so that they're worth writing about). Imagine writing an article on game production. Wouldn't it be more interesting focusing on several individuals and their skills, and how the team works together?
We need to promote different skill sets through the recognition of specific standardized credit titles so that there are more "windows" of opportunity for press coverage --- in other words, more "angles."
When you have judges who see games as nothing more than glorified chess, you obviously have a problem as far as the average Joe's perception of the incredible amount of talent and ability that goes into game production.
Standardized credits will create a "language" for the industry, making it easy for anyone to learn more about it.
I think we're getting too bogged down with "what if my team member Joe has an idea for game design and I use it." Good for him. The guild would say "sorry Joe, you're not an accredited game designer."
We may not see all the benefits now, but they will show themselves abundantly if an effort is made to standardize credits in this industry.
Thomas J. Allen
Executive Director, NAVGTR Corp.
navgtr.org
derek,
I was stating that EVERYONE wants to be a game designer, but really doesnt understand what they are implying by that, you of all people know that having a vision for a game, doesn't mean you can do it on your own.
and that each person you bring into the mix, adds their own flavour to the game, you cannot stop that.
what you were actually saying was there isnt a need for roll definition.
I was disagreeing with that statement, which is complete tosh. We need to define rolls positions. What I believe a game designer is, would be a Director in a film. He doesnt make the story, he helps shape and interpret it. He doesn't act, he doesnt operate a camera. He sets the scene.
as it is, we dont have tools to support that, we dont have the ability in games to come close.
as for this complete crap about people wearing many hats. Guess what 15 years later in this industry, and I'm SICK OF IT!!! Wearing many hats means doing many jobs, and its not possible any more. Not with the scope of projects we're talking about now.
so enough with the wearing many hats crap... everyone likes to be the martar in this industry, oh I worked 20 hours yesterday... and ... or I had to do an all nighter... these phrases are RUBBISH, and the lack of roll definition and standards just encourage this bs.
trying not to make this too personal derek, you run your company with the intent of what, making a game every 4 years I think it is, though you do make patches every month, why is this ? perhaps its because you're the producer, lead programmer, lead tools, artist, and I commend you on your effect, but the rest of the game industry lives in a 18month reality, if that, EA works on a 12 month release schedule (although teams are staggered),
so derek, I was disagreeing with your lack of standards statement. I hope its clear now. I think standardization is a MAJOR roll for the IGDA to be in, more important than other areas.
andi
Going by your argument, you seem to indicate that even a credit like, say, Developer or even Programmer, is too broad. Maybe we should break it down to something like so...?
Jane Doe, Wife of John Doe and developer of the kernel system upon which the failsafe security system was designed
Sally Doe, Sister of Jane Doe and programmer of the DB frontend for the failsafe security system
Wendy Doe, Daughter of Sally Doe and resident slacker who fine tuned the failsafe security system
So, I really have NO idea what you're going on about - nor how a discussion...ooops excuse me, I meant a poll, about the direction and focus of the IGDA, ended up being a discussion about game development credits. If you're suggesting that it be discussed within the scope of the IDGA function, boy you're so far out of this zip code, you'd need a cab just to get back m8.
BUT, as Thomas seems to suggest, if the whole issue of credits is really an issue that must be standardized, thats just going to be a side issue within the scope of the IGDA's functionality I think. Besides, we can't get members to show up at meetings, let alone secure adequate funding....and we're going to try and do what exactly? Get the industry to standardize on something as inconsequential and trivial (compared to other pressing IGDA functions and focus) as game credits? Okaaaaay.
Nooooo, u think?
derek, I disagree here, strongly.
If we cannot define our rolls within our industry how can we expect people to be adequately trained for those rolls? For instance if everyone is classified as Game Designer ? does this mean art? programming? level designer ? game author?
if we dont define this, its pure chaos, producer, for instance does what ? track and maintain budgets? schedules? or is also a designer ? responsible for design implementation and design approval ? depending where you are it means a different thing.
I see senior engineers now with 3 years experience, but ACM for instance recognizes 7 years as a senior ? bit of a difference, even more annoying if you're trying to figure out resumes
anyway.... I think we need definitions.. it will come out from credit definitions anyway, in some form..
andi
Well smack me sideways with a slab o' beef and color me stumped - because I have NO idea what you're disagreeing with Andi.
...going back and reading my post, and yours, I'm still baffled. Are you suggesting that someone shouldn't be a Game Designer because its too broad? If thats the case, then thats just ridiculous - and you simply cannot be serious. In retrospect, seeing that you wrote two posts about it, you MUST be serious!
A Game Designer is just that, someone who either designed an entire game or parts of it. It is not unheard of to have more than one Game Designer on a project, in much the same way you can have more than one programmer, artist, animator etc etc. In fact, if a Game Designer specs out something and another person, say an artist, programmer etc suggests a change, it is no longer the Game Designer's idea is it? So, should the artist or programmer call himself a Game Designer and thus share the credit? Not by a long shot.
I can't think of any one developer who would rather be called Game Designer than say, programmer - if he/she posseses both skills. I mean, its not the movie industry we're talking about here, where a producer or director who mutters something to a Key Grip, automatically gets to share that KG's credits. Or vice versa. By and large, I think the industry has a firm grip on what credit gets assigned to what person. If it ends up being inaccurate or otherwise incorrect, thats up to the individual companies to rectify it. Whats this got to do with the IDGA? Well its not like SAG or the many movie industry credits have a blurry line related to who does what, when and how.
Case in point (and I'm going to use myself as an example once again), I design all my games. I'm also the producer, lead developer (I write approx 90% of the code, put the game together from all out sourced elements etc), CTO (I research new technologies on an ongoing basis), lead coffee maker etc etc. To the extent that, being a qualified artist, modeler and animator (I was pissing around with DPaint, 3DS R1 etc back when most in the industry were still considering crawling out of their diapers), if a modeler sends me an asset that ain't just right, I clean it up myself, and send him back my version. EVERY SINGLE ASSET (all 500+ of them in my upcoming game), I SINGLE HANDEDLY export, convert and integrate into my games. Nobody else does it.
And with all that, the only title you'll ever see me using is what you see in my sig. You don't see me claiming artististic credits (though I regularly direct my artists one what an asset should look like, from concept to completion etc etc). And even in the game credits, I don't claim credit for peripheral work that I do in my games.
continued.....
Game Audio Network Guild
The Game Audio Network Guild is already in place. It too has been trying to focus on industry credit standards. We need more guilds like this, so that each group can look out for its own best interests instead of being lost in the herd of a larger group that, while working with good intentions, will not be able to capture the passion and initiative of more focused and specialized groups (guilds).
Thomas J. Allen
Executive Director
National Academy of Video Game Testers & Reviewers Corp.
navgtr.org
Standards in Credits
Let me briefly address each choice in the poll:
Advocacy --- The ESA has a grassroots program and a web site allowing supporters to send messages to Congress re: regulation and content issues. Let the ESA focus on this.
Benefits --- This should be a standard part of anything you do, just to keep people involved. You don't have to do a lot, and it could just be little perks that have nothing to do with games per se. We're not talking health benefits here.
Community --- Obviously this is the main focus as seen in the poll.
Craft --- I think the devs can handle this; innovation is sufficient from year to year.
Information --- Need to know more about how IGDA distributes information.
Standards --- Everyone needs to consider this more. We desperately need standards in credits in the industry. If you wear several hats, you deserve several credits. The film industry has virtually unknown guilds that really drive most of the Oscar nominees. There's an art directors guild, a costume guild, a sound guild, an editors guild, a producers guild, plus the more well-known writers, directors, and actors guilds (SAG awards). We need to develop the game industry this way. Having one big umbrella group look out for everybody will not work; someone will always be getting less attention. The IGDA should work with its members and help THEM set up these guilds, so that each profession can help bring about standards in credits for itself. I can't tell you how frustrating it has been trying to give out awards when the credits vary from company to company for the same jobs. Sometimes it can be very confusing. Having standards will make it easier for employers to assess job candidates once the credits actually mean something clear in all cases.
Thomas J. Allen
Executive Director
National Academy of Video Game Testers & Reviewers Corp.
navgtr.org
Game Music Production Networking
And while we're on the subject of what the focus of IGDA should be and how to improve the experience for those new to the game development industry, I would like to see IGDA provide a better experience for new game music providers such as myself (Big Bruva Records/Step ONE of Dallas Entertainment). Several months ago, I signed up on IGDA as an associate to see what IGDA offers music providers in the way of guidance and networking opportunities, and I haven't seen much. So far, it seems that I just have to continue contacting game developers directly or only work through an agent or publisher.
John "Bruva JC" Conley
Owner/Executive Producer
Step One of Dallas Entertainment
Big Bruva Records
Samsona.com Web Development
samsona.com/stepone
"Game Designer"
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the reason the title “Game Designer” exists is because there are a plethora of people that unfortunately believe one person’s concept for a game is actually valuable. “Game Designer”, to me, means a person that comes up with all the work for the implementers (Artists, Programmers, etc…). For example, I am sure you have heard it said on many of the fan-forums “Wouldn’t it be cool if ‘they’ made a [insert game type] game where you could [insert feature] … massive multiplayer … [insert statement about supporting all platforms]” This is the classic example of a “Game Designer”.
As far as I know, there is no “one game designer”; usually a game’s design comes from the company founders / bill payers. Then through a series of meetings with the leads, the design is born. I don’t know of a company that has so hard of a time thinking of some great game idea, that they employ a “Game Designer” to dictate where the next 2+ years of company time is going to be spent.
Granted, I have a pessimistic view of invention and society. However, it is rather unfortunate there are millions of people that actually believe “few people have good ideas”. I am not saying I have not seen bad ideas. Great game designs come from nearly everyone. In my opinion, the only “Game Designers” in the industry choose to take on other titles like “CEO”, “Founder”, “CTO”, and “Publisher” (although that last one is not really a title).