Do I even want to break in?
I am obviously not alone in my quest for some creative outlet for which I am passionate. This and other forums, blogs, trade magazines and websites give a wealth of information about the video game industry to us eager minds. From my outsider's perspective, it is refreshing and encouraging to see so many people helping not only future generations, but current ones as well. The video game industry seems flush with people who realize that some competition hurts the collective. However, if you dig a little deeper you find a new layer of people that seem to be driving people away from the industry. I can't tell whether this is an elitist drive or disgruntled frustration, but it makes me stop and wonder. Knowing the state of the working conditions, who in their right mind would even want to break in?
The first real dialog that surfaced in a broad respect, the whole ea_spouse ordeal, happened almost 4 years ago. Has anything changed since then? Here are some of the things that I have been reading:
Originally posted by dsmart
The fact is, working conditions for game devs is a notch above (if not on par with) with slave labor. If you do the math of an average game dev's pay, compared to that of slave labor, you will find that they are quite comparable.
Might as well go see a psychiatrist, get a prescription for an SSRI, keep your mouth shut, your emotions in check and plod through your gig if you want a paycheck; because making waves will just get you fired.
Originally posted by anon454545
I love my job, but I have been working 70+ hours for the better part of the year. This is not crunching--it's abuse.
Originally posted by Jare
During Praetorians, we managed to prevent crunch (except the odd days before a delivery) for more than half of the team, and made some effort to understand WHAT was causing the need for extra time for the others. By the time we were crunching, I couldn't actually solve it, partly because my background included crunch time as a given
Originally found online from a former Digipen Student
A 60-80 hour work week is not far from common. During crunch time, which can last anywhere from two months to a year or more, sometimes employees sleep on the floor at work.
Obviously all of these people, and others who are like-minded are passionate about what they do. They love their jobs, or did at one time. But I do not think it is fair to tell people that if they want to put their family, mortgage, and social consideration first before their career, that they will never hack it in the gaming bizz. If that is the case, then I think realistically, a lot of us looking to "break in" at some point need to reevaluate our goals.
Have the people above and others reached Asheron's Call's Eric Heimburg's description of "The Burnout":
"The designer doesn’t care anymore. The stupidity of the gaming industry has overcome them. Budget cuts mean QA won’t be testing the content this week? Sigh, what can you do. The producer wants that perfectly-balanced dungeon redone? Okay, whatever. It’s just a job. The designer puts in their eight hours and goes home. They avoid overtime like the plague (and if they are in a job where they can’t, they have to quit at this stage, or else they’ll soon get fired). They just can’t muster the passion to do amazing work anymore.
There are two paths from here, and they’re equally common: designers can leave the industry completely, or they can work through it. In the latter case, they bide their time. Maybe they take a few months off somehow. Maybe they just stop caring but still manage to put out reasonable-quality work for a year or two, puttering along, until one day…"
Before I am flamed for not having true passion, a bad work ethic, misaligned goals or values or strong cognitive abilities, assume all of these things are considered. Assume I am the perfect fledgling game dev student of the future. I have the drive, the will, the purpose, the smarts and the physical ability to do it all. I am Eric Heimburg's "Eager Newbie", but am I just on the inevitable path towards my burnout stage? I refuse to believe that this is simply just how it works. I hope that my understanding of the status quo is incorrect, or I am just seeing the wrong accounts here.
What IS the state of this industry? Are these quotes and descriptions way off base, or are 70 hour, 7 day a week work schedules expected ... or even demanded? From past experience, I can recognize what sacrifice means with respect to your career. But even this sounds extreme.
There's always the Lone Wolf route. If you're worried about QOL in the workplace, don't join the workplace. Make your own. That route isn't for everyone, but neither is the job route.
Mathematix, first I would like to thank you for your response, anything from any level of experience is appreciated. However, I think maybe we are focusing on my theoretical commitment level for some reason. I can't consider the limitless positive aspects and dream of a future working with creative and talented individuals without considering the industry as a whole. I think doing so would label me as willfully ignorant; a dangerous mindset no matter the field. So I have not looked only at the bad. Why would I take the time and do the research if all I was hoping to find would be negative representations? The fact is, these situations obviously exist regardless of what I choose to read. The more research I do, the increasing number of similar accounts I find is directly proportional. I don't have to go far to find this:
Originally posted by Warden
State of the Industry
Q: What's working in the industry like?
A: At the time of this writing, the IGDA has a Quality of Life Committee. This should tell you something. Although a hard statistic is hard to find, it is commonly said that a good third of entry level game developers burn out before they finish their first professional title. This is because of the long hours and stress that the game industry provides. Furthermore, companies are created and collapse nearly every year, and after every project.
Only a third? I guess there is hope! Again, I attempted (obviously poorly) to try and ask this on the behalf of all who are trying to break in. My question is not about my own personal motivations, or the seriousness of my commitment. Working hard, applying yourself, learning to communicate effectively, spending your time wisely and personal accountability are all given. These factors all play a part in any industry. Let us assume for the benefit of all, that a person trying to get into game development exceeds in all of these categories. Their drive and abilities are unmatched. My question is not whether or not this person (or me if you would like) is going to get the job. The question is - should they?
You did answer my question indirectly and for that I thank you. You say that these complaints are the minority, and these are extreme cases only. You say that people who work these hours do so because they choose to, and that you rarely have. You then go on to say that your hours are subject to the "luck of the draw", which is not exactly encouraging, but I suppose does not give reason to give up! Tom, thank you as well for your input. Your dedication to those with similar questions is not unknown having frequented the FAQs on your website, and seen reference to them in many forms online. We all I think entertain that garage developer mentality, especially in these early stages. What choice do we have? But to achieve long term newbie goals of creating worlds and stories bounded only by imagination, I think at some point you have to work within the industry and not so much independently of it (maybe I'm wrong, I will claim ignorance there). Are you saying that the only way to avoid these schedules is to work alone?
Back to my original question, I can see that posting negative representations or opinions could be a common case in forums. What reason would people that are perfectly content with their jobs have to come onto a forum and tell others about it (other than to answer my question)? It is similar to consumer reviews, or MMO forums I suppose. When things are good (as they should be) then you rarely feel passionate enough to tell the world about it. I am hoping this is true. Perhaps this is not a "Breaking In" question in the most true definition and is therefore innapropriate; but I think it is related, and should be considered by most people reading this forum.
Are you saying that the only way to avoid these schedules is to work alone?
No, but it is a sure fire way to control your own hours.
As said before, the hours will differ from company to company, team to team, even project to project. However, it is a serious issue that is being looked at very seriously.
E.g.
We take the work/life balance issue seriously. We believe the best work gets done when people aren't overworked and are happy with what they're doing, so we never crunch; never work a weekend; never work past six. That doesn't make us lazy, we've just found that quality software and great ideas aren't born through lost weekends and late night pizzas at our desk.
Relentless Software
I think there is only one way to change things like the poor working conditions that 'some' must endure and that is to either put your foot down and demand better, or leave and start your own company up.
This industry seems to have the same 'master/slave' relationship as musicians have with their record companies; the developer/musician are always the ones asking for a cash advance, so they are automatically placed in a bad bargaining position for any contract negotiations. The development companies then have to work their employees very hard to keep the publishers/investors happy, who then in turn must agree to ludicrous deadlines and return terms from the shareholders. (This obviously hurts the people at the bottom of the food chain the most)
I know there are a few companies who do look after their employees and offer great working benefits, but as BryanBishop has mentioned; these companies are in the minority and possibly not all can realistically do this.
To answer your question; It is down to the individual to look at the pros and cons and then decide whether they are happy to accept the industry as it is and become one of the drones, or to make a stand and force a change. Anyone who wants to pursue a career in games development should be aware of the current trends and if they choose so; they can try to influence change either by negotiation or by example...... or not.
My partners and I have promised ourselves that we will never take advantage of our employees and always value the man before the machine, which I believe will increase productivity, originality and personal well being. Ie, they will ‘want’ to come to work and enjoy being there.
Managing Director
The ironic thing is that working more hours doesn't make a better game. The more hours worked the less productive the company becomes. As it goes higher you actually start going below the effeciancy of 40 hours a week. 40-50 seems to be the most they can take out of an employee without losing any effeciancy.
Like so many things in life, it comes down to tradeoffs.
Does the industry have its horror stories? Absolutely. Why? Supply and demand -- this is a glamour industry, and as long as there's someone willing to work harder than you for less pay, some studios will take advantage of that. This is the reality, and it's not going away anytime soon.
Are there some studios that give serious consideration to quality-of-life issues, places that take care of their people and don't just treat their people as slaves? Absolutely. Why? Because the industry has enough people who realize that working people to death does not necessarily make a better game, that turnover is more expensive than lack of crunch, and that frankly, life is too short to put up with this 100-hour-work-week nonsense.
If you're looking from the outside in deciding if this is something you want to do, it's a matter of deciding exactly what you are and aren't willing to sacrifice. Generally, this is a continuum, with three extremes:
1) Break into the industry, no matter what, whatever it takes. You'll probably get in, although you might not like your first job all that much. Once you're in, if you find your studio is overly abusive, you can start looking for work at a better place (provided that you have the energy and spare time for a job search during crunch).
2) Only take a job if everything is absolutely perfect and matches your exacting standards; no crunch, only your dream job (not a "lesser" job on the way there), and with a minimum salary requirement. Obviously, this takes longer -- you might be looking for a game industry job for years, rather than months.
3) The industry can go to heck, do it yourself! Making your career and your hobby the same thing isn't for everyone, and that's perfectly okay. (Hey, I'd rather people figure this out BEFORE spending 5.5 years of their lives learning the hard way.)
There is no "right answer" here. It comes down to a personal decision. Figure out where your priorities are, and go from there.
Here is the answer... Don't be surprised, shocked or pass out from the complexity, please.
Research and Network.
Yes. Don't look at the horror stories, because who in the world knows when those were even written. If you research companies that you are interested in, and talk to them at the Game Developers Conference or another conference, then you will get a good idea about that company. Then you can meet people at the GDC, and talk to them about their QOL.
There are a lot of companies out there. I highly doubt (and it's already shown in this thread) that every company is going to turn you into a slave.
Originally posted by IanSchreiber
Does the industry have its horror stories? Absolutely. Why? Supply and demand -- this is a glamour industry, and as long as there's someone willing to work harder than you for less pay, some studios will take advantage of that. This is the reality, and it's not going away anytime soon.
You know, I was recently having an argument with my friend over the writer's strike. His position was that writing is a dream job and there's so many people willing to take a position for less money that the writers are in no position to bargain.
It sounded very familiar.
It certainly makes me wonder how they ever managed to build such an influential union.
To add my two cents in, I too will say that the working conditions vary a lot between companies and between years - there might be a lot of places where conditions are horrible, but there are also a lot where they are pretty decent.
It might be a case of wearing optimist glasses, but I have the feeling that overall, working conditions have been slowly improving since the nineties and early 2000's. The whole ea_spouse shebang had a lot of impact on mentalities. We still have a long way to go, though.
Well I certainly appreciate the dialogue that is happening here. For someone looking to start out, I think it is pretty daunting to imagine breaking in by starting your own company.
Quote from DarrenAdams
Anyone who wants to pursue a career in games development should be aware of the current trends and if they choose so; they can try to influence change either by negotiation or by example...... or not.
This is exactly what I am trying to do. Of course my ultimate focus is not solely on the quality of life, but for the purposes of this discussion they are. I think it is important not to delude myself now, and regret all the hard work and effort 5 years from now. But influencing change and negotiation? If thousands already in the industry have difficulty changing the situation, then what hope do us future generations have, specifically in our first year. I would argue that fresh graduates have little bargaining power if any.
Ian, I will run with your trade off reference and combine your three examples to make them more true to form. I think the most realistic and best opportunity for employment would result from your first example:
Quote from IanSchreiber
1) Break into the industry, no matter what, whatever it takes. You'll probably get in, although you might not like your first job all that much. Once you're in, if you find your studio is overly abusive, you can start looking for work at a better place (provided that you have the energy and spare time for a job search during crunch).
...within limits of course. I'm not going to sell my house, my car, leave my kids and my wife, move to Russia and work for free just to get a job. Would I move? Absolutely. Would I be fine with working 50 hours a week? Sure. Would they have to pay me a viable salary? Or course. This list of possible scenarios could go on for pages. It sounds like this scenario is quite common though. Student gets a crap job and gets beat up for 3 years until he finds a better job somewhere else because now he knows what to look for. I guess I'm trying to get a clearer picture of those signs beforehand.
DLMcGraw, if everyone is telling me to stop worrying and to look at the good sides of the industry, that is great. Trust me when I say that that is exactly what I want to hear. I of course want my goals to be realistic. I have a quick question that some may be willing to answer with regards to the common advice we get on networking. GDC contact is a given, but in just talking to people, am I going to be able to ask the questions that reveal a companies true QOL? Can you shake their hand and say, "Hi, my name is John, I'm a student at State looking for a job in the near future, do you work your employees to death?" First off, you are going to sound like you already don't want to work hard no matter how you word it. Second, I don't think their answer, truthful or not, would tell you much.
Quote from Thelo
I have the feeling that overall, working conditions have been slowly improving since the nineties and early 2000's. The whole ea_spouse shebang had a lot of impact on mentalities. We still have a long way to go, though.
If a simple message like that had so much impact, I think that is promissing is some respects. At least people can recognise that it is a problem and are willing to talk about it. Everyone is also saying that these stories and things are from years ago. Is the lack of complaints due to improvments in the QOL? It doesn't exactly sound like it. The "White Paper" was presented in 2004. What has happened in the last 4 years? And no one has answered my question directly yet. Should I break in?
Hint: I want to you say yes.
Originally posted by BryanBishop
Mathematix, first I would like to thank you for your response, anything from any level of experience is appreciated. However, I think maybe we are focusing on my theoretical commitment level for some reason. I can't consider the limitless positive aspects and dream of a future working with creative and talented individuals without considering the industry as a whole. I think doing so would label me as willfully ignorant; a dangerous mindset no matter the field. So I have not looked only at the bad. Why would I take the time and do the research if all I was hoping to find would be negative representations? The fact is, these situations obviously exist regardless of what I choose to read. The more research I do, the increasing number of similar accounts I find is directly proportional. I don't have to go far to find this:
Only a third? I guess there is hope! Again, I attempted (obviously poorly) to try and ask this on the behalf of all who are trying to break in. My question is not about my own personal motivations, or the seriousness of my commitment. Working hard, applying yourself, learning to communicate effectively, spending your time wisely and personal accountability are all given. These factors all play a part in any industry. Let us assume for the benefit of all, that a person trying to get into game development exceeds in all of these categories. Their drive and abilities are unmatched. My question is not whether or not this person (or me if you would like) is going to get the job. The question is - should they?
You did answer my question indirectly and for that I thank you. You say that these complaints are the minority, and these are extreme cases only. You say that people who work these hours do so because they choose to, and that you rarely have. You then go on to say that your hours are subject to the "luck of the draw", which is not exactly encouraging, but I suppose does not give reason to give up! Tom, thank you as well for your input. Your dedication to those with similar questions is not unknown having frequented the FAQs on your website, and seen reference to them in many forms online. We all I think entertain that garage developer mentality, especially in these early stages. What choice do we have? But to achieve long term newbie goals of creating worlds and stories bounded only by imagination, I think at some point you have to work within the industry and not so much independently of it (maybe I'm wrong, I will claim ignorance there). Are you saying that the only way to avoid these schedules is to work alone?
No problem, BryanBishop. 
The reason why I turned your concerns on their head by posting what I did was to point out that you are getting hung-up on a secondary concern - see it as if you actively trying to avoid a situation that you cannot really totally avoid, but to can avoid it to the greater extent. Doing any amount of overtime is something that all of us will want to avoid, but varying amounts are inevitable.
My comment regarding the "luck of the draw" was meant to point out the policies of the studio that you end up working for. Many actively avoid, and very successfully do so, in asking employees to do excessive overtime, and I think I made this clear in my initial post. I won't name names for the studios who have good/back overtime records, but working in games doesn't automatically mean that you will do silly amounts of overtime. I've worked in other industries where I've done far more overtime in less time than I've had in the games industry.
I'm all for QoL issues, but sometimes such findings need to be put in perspective.
Originally posted by BryanBishop
Should I break in?
Hint: I want to you say yes.
No-one can answer that question. What may affect your decision to enter industry doesn't always affect ours.
The question is, do you want to break in? Only you can answer this question based on the opinions above and not anyone else.
Originally posted by Skorpion
You know, I was recently having an argument with my friend over the writer's strike. His position was that writing is a dream job and there's so many people willing to take a position for less money that the writers are in no position to bargain.
It sounded very familiar.
It certainly makes me wonder how they ever managed to build such an influential union.
I've always hated that response when writers, or actors, or anyone with a good job goes on strike.
Just because something is a "dream job" doesn't mean it's not still a job. These people clawed, and scratched, fought their way to being in a position to get paid for what they love. They deserve proper compensation.
And just because there is 1000 people willing to do the same thing for less, doesn't mean they are as good.
I hate the idea that because you have a good job that is creative that you don't actually do any work.
Originally posted by Mathematix
I'm all for QoL issues, but sometimes such findings need to be put in perspective.
I will not only buy into that, it is pretty encouraging. Everyone has been legitimately impartial with my question which says a lot I think. You seem to stick together and generally agree. The fact that you are protecting studio reputations and generally telling me that "Yes, these things do happen, but happen in any industry, and your job is what you make of it." projects hope. Thanks everyone.
Originally posted by BryanBishop
I think it is important not to delude myself now, and regret all the hard work and effort 5 years from now. But influencing change and negotiation? If thousands already in the industry have difficulty changing the situation, then what hope do us future generations have, specifically in our first year. I would argue that fresh graduates have little bargaining power if any.
It is not an easy task granted; but if everyone thought 'why should I bother, I am a nobody' then nothing will ever change and chances are that person will be a nobody for ever. You can accuse me of being optimistic in my views and I wholeheartedly agree, but I like to believe people change things by being proactive and not admitting defeat before they have even started. Besides; a person doesn't have to take a job that isn't what they were looking for.
Yes, this industry can bite like a Rhodesian red-back, but it can also bring huge amounts of self satisfaction and enjoyment.... apparently. :p So either negotiate a good deal, take what you are given or call the shots yourself, because it is ultimately down to the person wanting to break in and what they are willing to accept.
Managing Director
I would think that any newbies "breaking in" should expect that they might be treated like expendable assets at first. I'm currently trying to break in, and as I'm discovering, newbies just aren't in the position to be picky about where their first gig will be. You really need to grab the first opportunity that comes your way, because they wont be coming often. It just comes down to luck as to how that company will treat you when you finally do get in. You might just be one of those ea_spouse horror stories, but if you need the experience then so be it. If your employer doesn't start treating you like a human after the release of your first title then walk away, and take your valuable experience with you.
Hours vary tremendously. But, you can make it clear when you are hired what you are willing to tolerate. If they are not amenable to what you consider reasonable, just don't work there, trust me, you will go crazy.
gamewatch.org has a lot of resources about QoL to further investigate your question/discussion
Thanks BryanBishop, for posting this topic. This is exactly the issue that bothers me the most.
What bugs me is this idea I get from various sources that developers have to be obsessed about game development as opposed to simply loving it in order to make a life out of it. Life is about balance and it seems sometimes there's not much room for that in this industry.
"It is not an easy task granted; but if everyone thought 'why should I bother, I am a nobody' then nothing will ever change and chances are that person will be a nobody for ever."
That's just it. I get this vibe that most developers have become quite bitter. They also seem to see themselves as superheroes, often looking down on fledglings that aren't committed to sacrificing a lot in order to break in.
"What's in it for me?" is a very good question. It's not a 'why should I bother, I am a nobody', it's a 'I'm doing everything I can to become the perfect prospective employee , should I bother'. Not everyone's a genius. Game developers are ordinary people. And this idea that "if someone is trying hard and hasn't got anything to date he's just not good enough and should quit" is in my opinion the product of developers having their own ego inflated after achieving their dream, thinking they are special.
I'm still in learning the ways of game development and I'm not someone who has been rejected many times when trying to apply to a job, because I never did. But just because I question myself and I question my likes and dislikes, doesn't mean I'm a "whiner ", it means life is about striking a balance and I have other things to consider when I picture a role in game development.
In my case in particular it will probably mean I will have to go live in another country, away from home, away from family and I'll have to start my social life from scratch. No matter how you see it, that's a big hurdle. I'm an adventurer by nature, and I'm looking forward to the opportunity, but I'll have to leave a lot behind and consider living abroad for the rest of my life. I always wonder about things like starting a family abroad mid-crunch and stuff like that.
I want to be a game designer, but I also want to be able to look forward to all the other things life has to offer me.
Originally posted by Horror
I would think that any newbies "breaking in" should expect that they might be treated like expendable assets at first. I'm currently trying to break in, and as I'm discovering, newbies just aren't in the position to be picky about where their first gig will be. You really need to grab the first opportunity that comes your way, because they wont be coming often. It just comes down to luck as to how that company will treat you when you finally do get in. You might just be one of those ea_spouse horror stories, but if you need the experience then so be it. If your employer doesn't start treating you like a human after the release of your first title then walk away, and take your valuable experience with you.
Again I feel that something needs clarifying here. When a new person enters the industry at entry-level they will most likely be joining when a project, or number of projects are well under way. Of course when projects are underway all established staff are busy communicating with each other and completing tasks in order to meet deadlines. When the new employee enters, having no experience of what is involved in a project, they can and will often interpret it as some level of rejection in being 'ignored'.
It would be wiser to think of it along the lines of if you were not appreciated you wouldn't have the job in the first place!
Originally posted by Endow
What bugs me is this idea I get from various sources that developers have to be obsessed about game development as opposed to simply loving it in order to make a life out of it. Life is about balance and it seems sometimes there's not much room for that in this industry.
I get this vibe that most developers have become quite bitter. They also seem to see themselves as superheroes, often looking down on fledglings that aren't committed to sacrificing a lot in order to break in.
Game developers are ordinary people. And this idea that "if someone is trying hard and hasn't got anything to date he's just not good enough and should quit" is in my opinion the product of developers having their own ego inflated after achieving their dream, thinking they are special.
I'm still in learning the ways of game development and I'm not someone who has been rejected many times when trying to apply to a job, because I never did.
I was going to reply to this, but since I'm just a bitter game dev with a superhero complex and an inflated ego I doubt you care what I have to say, so I won't bother. 
If I were you, I'd start looking for some less biased views of the industry - it sounds like you've gotten your information from some very jaded and very biased sources, and none of that is going to help you in your efforts to join the game industry. It seems like you're more concerned with the attitudes of other designers at game studios rather than the quality of life. Frankly, with such contempt towards your future peers, I'm surprised you still want to work in the industry.
Megan
Originally posted by Endow
In my case in particular it will probably mean I will have to go live in another country, away from home, away from family and I'll have to start my social life from scratch. No matter how you see it, that's a big hurdle. I'm an adventurer by nature, and I'm looking forward to the opportunity, but I'll have to leave a lot behind and consider living abroad for the rest of my life. I always wonder about things like starting a family abroad mid-crunch and stuff like that.
I want to be a game designer, but I also want to be able to look forward to all the other things life has to offer me.
I have crossed that hurdle a while ago so I can understand what you might be thinking.
Yes, it is a life changing moment for anyone moving abroad to another country away from family and friends. But dont look at it as a hurdle but see it as a challenge and an oppportunity to fulfill your potential. Of course, there are various factors/circumstances that can play a major role in how one deals with it.
Dont be affected too much by stories of the dark side of the games industry...its upto you to make the most of what you have and strike a balance...easier said than done but its not impossible
Posted by grrgirl
Hours vary tremendously. But, you can make it clear when you are hired what you are willing to tolerate. If they are not amenable to what you consider reasonable, just don't work there, trust me, you will go crazy.
Fair enough. I have heard about the concept of "flex hours" which I interpret to mean that most people 40 hours a week, and pick when those will be within reason. The best thing about this discussion is that I am getting the other side of the story; people saying that they love the industry, or that horror stories are a minority.
Posted by Mathematix
When a new person enters the industry at entry-level they will most likely be joining when a project, or number of projects are well under way. Of course when projects are underway all established staff are busy communicating with each other and completing tasks in order to meet deadlines. When the new employee enters, having no experience of what is involved in a project, they can and will often interpret it as some level of rejection in being 'ignored'.
True for any industry I would assume in my ignorance. I do have a more specific question with regards to internships which might be related to this. If new careerists are going to be subjected to slaving conditions, what QOL issues do interns have with companies that basically receive nothing? Obviously the experience you would garnish from an internship would outbalance any negatives. Would an intern experience be similar to your first year in the industry, or are assumptions different? Is it again a toss up depending on what company you get?
Posted by ghostgirl
I was going to reply to this, but since I'm just a bitter game dev with a superhero complex and an inflated ego I doubt you care what I have to say, so I won't bother.
Well, I will take whatever subjective experience I can get. I think it might be important to hear the positive as well as the negative. I love that a lot of people in this industry are true advocates of the future generations, but some people really seem to be almost driving interested people away like it is their task to weed at the ones that aren't truly committed. Are game dev insiders just protecting their amazing jobs? Again, the best part of this discussion is that I get to hear the other side that people normally have no reason to reveal. I understand that ultimately everyone would like to be paid and still retain some degree of creativity, and that is one of the biggest draws. Working with other people that are passionate about their jobs is what it's about, so I am not focusing on their bad attitudes. My concern is only for the quality of life. I have a few friends who have made their living as programmers or artists for almost a decade, and would never dream of touching the games industry just because of the hours. Is this because they aren't gamers? Now way. It is because they make twice as much to work half the hours and still have some creative flexibility? I have no idea, but that is their excuse.
If I was going to work construction, I would be worried about safety. If I was going to join the military, I would be worried about being away from home. If I was going to work as a sushi chef, I would be worried about cutting off a finger or giving people food poisoning. I am just trying to dig a little into the real experience because I have none. Us newbies have only what we hear, so if I'm on these forums and am reading just bad experiences one after another, I am going to assume that not all the industry is like that, but it does bring doubts. I can read Tom Sloper's very detailed averages about all sides of the industry:
Found on Sloperama
Normally you'll have to work a regular 40-hour week. You can expect to put in longer hours at some point, on just about every project. The entire project hinges on having a complete game design, so the game designer is always under pressure to get it completed as quickly as possible. Not to say that your work is done once the design doc is written...
As respected as these accounts are, it is still just something I read online...
Is this because they aren't gamers? Now way. It is because they make twice as much to work half the hours and still have some creative flexibility? I have no idea, but that is their excuse.
I use to work for the goverment. I'm sure that I'm be making 20-30% more money if I would of stayed in the goverment. But would it be worth doing something I hate? I'm assuming your friends probably don't love what they do. To them it's a job. That's only a decision that they can make, only one that you can make. For me, loving what I do at work is a must; if I did't care about that, I'd be in the goverment. I'm sure the people you'd work with in a non-industry job would be cool, but I wouldn't be able to see myself working anywhere else then a game company. The atmosphere is much more casual. For me, the people, the work is what I like about the job. What is important to you?
Originally posted by BryanBishop
..., what QOL issues do interns have with companies that basically receive nothing? Obviously the experience you would garnish from an internship would outbalance any negatives.
Well, it's not fair to say that the intern is receiving 'nothing'. For their time there they are, of course, gaining some level of experience that they can not only put on their resume, but also help them decide if they really want to join the industry. Secondly, it is not unheard of for interns to leave with a job offer on completion of their studies if they really impress.
Originally posted by BryanBishop
Would an intern experience be similar to your first year in the industry, or are assumptions different?
From what I have seen the experience of an intern is different from that of an entry-level employee:
1. The intern might not contribute to the work going into the final product.
2. The intern might not have to work a full week depending on employment law regarding age and other issues, and the discretion of the studio.
3. As they are interns, although they may be worked harder than expected, it will not be as hard as what is expected of an employee.
4. An intern's work is geared towards teaching them skills as part of experience, whereas an employee is expected to already have those skills and settle into the job of actually making games.
Originally posted by BryanBishop
Is it again a toss up depending on what company you get?
As always.
If you're asking if you should enter the industry, because you might have to work your butt off, then you probably shouldn't. 60-70 hrs a week isn't uncommon. People talk about quality of life, but it's simply talk or at least all the places I've ever worked, or heard of.
I'm sure there are safe harbors in the sea of insanity, but I've failed to find these shores.
The most I ever worked was 116 hours the week before E3 on Red Dead Revolver. I drove the last versions of the ROMs up to the convention, looked around, went to my hotel with my wife, and took a nap before dinner. I didn't wake up till lunch the next day.
I work for myself now doing casual games, and small game demos and proof of concepts. I only work 60 hours a week now, and part of myself still thinks this isn't enough effort.
Originally posted by glancaster
I work for myself now doing casual games, and small game demos and proof of concepts. I only work 60 hours a week now, and part of myself still thinks this isn't enough effort.
There is a good point; I know what you mean about not working enough. I think the lines are clear when you are being driven by someone else, but when you work for yourself you are likely to put in insane hours until you reach that 'drop dead tired' point which kind of defeats the object of the 'QoL' issue :p
So perhaps working for yourself might not be the best way of reducing your hours, unless your passion and drive are not great, but then I doubt anything would ever get finished.
Managing Director
Originally posted by tsloper
There's always the Lone Wolf route. If you're worried about QOL in the workplace, don't join the workplace. Make your own. That route isn't for everyone, but neither is the job route.
...couldn't have said it better myself. One look at the latest CMP gaming industry QOL and pay report tells you everything you need to know. And not much has change....believe it or not...in the past four years.
Its quite simple really. If you already part of the dog race, the only which way is up. And the best way to go about framing yourself for this, is to assume that you're already at the bottom.
Game development is absolutely - positively - not a dream job in the true sense of the term. Its not like being a doctor, astronaut or a relief worker in Africa somewhere. You know, stuff that you go to sleep at night thinking about your karmic boost.
If you love game development, then no matter how good, bad or ugly things get, its par for the course. Its like being a fireman. Sure you get to sit around on alert for most of the time; then one day a five alarm fire happens, and you're in it. When the dust settles, is that going to make you quit the next day because it ruined your afternoon Scrabble game?
Most of us who have been in this business since Lincoln was president have been through it all and seen it all. So pretty we're all seasoned. And not going anywhere. Ever.
Those of you bright eyed and bushy tailed aspiring young 'uns who think this is all about pop star stuff are better off joining a traveling circus.
How many people actually do the research when it comes to choosing a career? Hardly ever. In fact, I read a report one time which stated that most people's careers were chosen based on family pedigree (e.g. my dad was a cop, so I'm it!) and mostly based on the concept of just dropping in (e.g. you went to college to study literature. You came out a stoner stock broker).
So, if you're going to actually make a decision based on what career you should pursue, you're already off to a false start because you will spend the better part of your career, wading through all the research and info related to the pros and cons of the gaming industry. Would you rather be doing research on the pitfalls of being a doctor when you have to deal with rising liablity insurance, insurance company shenanigans, that whole oath thing etc? Or just.go.do.it?
All you need to do is ask yourself one simple question: Do I have what it takes?
Well I remember when I first heard about QoL issues *ever*. It was from another student, a very talented one who had switched from animation to programming, was mostly self taught and was and is still the only person from my alma mater to have built a solid, releasable, and saleable game entirely from the ground up, tools and all. I thought he was mad, especially with all that talent as he said that upon graduating he would not be entering the game industry for the QoL and low pay issues. Yes I did think it was somewhat lazy sounding. He now works somewhere else at a "real job", for a lot more pay and less work. The only thing I'm disappointed in is that he didnt' have the "do it for life" passion/ideas for game development after all, it was just a cool job, one of many one could possibly get for him. He also had a very nice girlfriend whom I'm sure was a factor in his decision. It's hard to either find time or more importantly, have one understand or tolerate what we go through in what we do (whether it pays a living or not).
Fast forward several years later and I began to see what he was talking about. If you've actually gone into game development for any length of time, you know that it's *really* rare to get anything *DONE* done in a short period of time. Don't kid yourself, you will be working your ass off either for yourself or for someone else. The "Someone else" may not be able to accomodate you. A gazillion dollar marketing budget isn't going to stop on a dime because you can't make milestone now that your wife is having a kid or your dad is dying of cancer in hospital.
It's in part due to poor process/tools i.e. you have to spend time writing a LUA intepreter for the Cell processor because Sony's platform is closed and proprietary but it all comes as part of the baggage. It is smart for prospective entrants into this industry to be asking these questions, I'd be more worried if they didn't and hopefully future generations will have a better go of it than we do because they put their foot down and refused these conditions thus forcing the industry as a whole to work towards correcting these issues.
I'm concerned here that you've only looked at the negative side of the industry, which is also the minority in such extreme cases. The individuals who opt to work such long hours have done just that - 'opted to'. Now to the more general reality.
Whether you want to break in or not shouldn't be determined by such stories, you will find the answer to such a question in the efforts that you make to get into the industry, and if you get there, the efforts you make to produce quality work. In my time so far I have noticed that there are varying types of hopefuls wanting to get into the industry:
1. Those who wish they had the talent and drive to even attempt to get in. They don't do anything in their spare time to better their skills for entry into the industry.
2. As above, but they sometimes work on small projects that are never completed to any standard and is always 'work in progress'.
3. Those who have the skill and can produce the work to a great standard, but omitted the one essential skill: selling themselves!
4. Those who can get into the industry, maybe as QA or something, but do not demonstrate the skill to progress any further with their careers. This is a rather nasty situation to be in as its a case of being a basic tester or nothing.
5. Those who do everything right and break in at whatever level and take on more and more responsibility in different roles.
Types 1 and 2 will never get anywhere. Type 3s waste a lot of time being rejected because they cannot sell themselves, but it is possible that they can get in if a very lucky chance passes their way. As already said for 'type 4s' they are gambling with their longterm livelyhoods and maybe should look at other careers. Even 'type 5' isn't perfect because of the stiff competition out there, but I'd be surprised not to eventually see them get a job and move up.
Firstly, you need to honestly place yourself in one of those categories and look to better yourself - this is the very first step in deciding if the industry is right for you and if you are likely to progress once getting there. I've only been in the industry now for just over 2.5 years and I've only worked three 12-hour days in all that time - maybe because the studio that I work for plans and does everything well. Of course there are others out there with not so good planning.
Really, it's up to you mate, and the luck of the draw for who you work for.